1058 The Irishman

[TwoTecs]

The Irishman: In Conversation, which autoplays after the credits or can be searched, is very interesting and I would recommend everyone to watch it. The piece also contains new behind-the-scenes footage.

[aox]

The Irishman: In Conversation, which autoplays after the credits or can be searched, is very interesting and I would recommend everyone to watch it. The piece also contains new behind-the-scenes footage.

Thanks for the tip.

I unfortunately won't get to this until Saturday at the earliest. It's killing me.

[Finch]

Re final shot, it made me think of The Godfather, too.

[HinkyDinkyTruesmith]

I've seen this twice now––once in a theatre, and now at home. It's almost my favorite Scorsese, although I still prefer the exuberance of Casino. This still is as assured, and if it's more leisurely, it's clearly a deliberate choice. It moves slowly but surely, and I was astonished during my first watch at the fact that not once did I ever find myself bored or hoping for something else. It's a brutal, hilarious film, one that was perhaps even funnier on second watch than on the first.

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I don't know about anyone else, but I went in not realizing that Sheeran claims he killed Hoffa, so the entire sequence in Detroit played incredibly effectively for me. It's funny, as I rewatched it, because the first night the two spend in the hotel together, when DeNiro picks up the gun and walks towards (and ultimately away from) Hoffa's door, I had a dread sense that he was going to use it, although I knew logically that wasn't going to happen. It feels like a very gentle foreshadow.

This is clearly Scorsese's reckoning with the entire condition of postwar masculinity and society. I think it's the best film of the year, by far.

[mfunk9786]

...but this is a movie without a point of view.

Can we add a “Most Wildly Incorrect Statement” to the annual forum awards?

Should have just avoided the forum today, yeowwww

barryconvex - wanted to single out your write-up as very enjoyable and insightful, especially your analysis of the phone call scene and how it fits into Frank's persona

[Persona]

...but this is a movie without a point of view.

Can we add a “Most Wildly Incorrect Statement” to the annual forum awards?

Should have just avoided the forum today, yeowwww

You think this is bad, try going on a thread about this movie on a forum with tons of Marvel fans. They are THIRSTY to talk about all the ways they think this movie fails.

[therewillbeblus]

barryconvex - wanted to single out your write-up as very enjoyable and insightful, especially your analysis of the phone call scene and how it fits into Frank's persona

Seconded, especially your highlight of the word “why” as the key to magnifying the passivity of the character and connecting this to moral awareness. It’s worth noting that “why” questions are ones that Hoffa would have no problem answering and would even embrace.

[tehthomas]

Watched this last night (couldn't have a thought of a better way to spend Thanksgiving eve than watching this and having a few drinks).

My initial thoughts are this is probably the best Scorsese film, in my opinion, since "Casino" but it is also a very different type of film of the gangster genre.. as this has been commented on.

Growing up in the suburbs of Detroit (I moved to Chicago in my early 30s), I have a personal connection to this film as it deals with Hoffa and Detroit, and these parts I loved. Coming from Michigan, I can tell you that the shadow of Hoffa still looms large and he was often talked about in my undergraduate journalism classes, referenced by professors that lived through that era and went on to cover figures such as the "hip hop mayor" - Kwame Kilpatrick. Which, btw, where is the Kwame movie!? God ol' mighty is that something I would love to see. The Crimetown podcast on him is highly recommended for the curious.

But back to Hoffa and "The Irishman" - I thought that Scorsese really executed the feeling of what that man meant and it is incredibly prescient now (teachers and nursing union strikes).

And let me tell you about that last act...

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I lived just a stones throw from the restaurant that Hoffa disappeared from and I was on the edge of my seat from the time that Frank called Hoffa while on the road with Russ. I don't think I can ever drive past that location/stretch of road again thanks to brilliance of Scorsese, DeNiro, Pacino and Pecsi

.

And one more thing, to FINALLY, have a film with DeNiro, Pacino and Pecsi (not to mention Harvey) directed by Scorsese is a dream. This is Marty's swan song, perhaps his "Mona Lisa" -- even though we know he is not done yet.

[flyonthewall2983]

Immediate impressions. Watched it in 4K on my brother's 75 inch behemoth, which I felt made up for the theatrical experience a little. The CGI felt a little stiff early on but otherwise not too troublesome for me.

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Really bummed Pacino only had one moment with Keitel, and there was no audible dialogue. The one scene between him and Pesci is maybe one of the major highlights for me.

It's an impressive piece of storytelling, the timing of it's release so perfect on every level. It carries the weight of the relevance of it's actions in today's world, but is also very personal. These relationships are far from the stock mob movie cliches we have seen an infinite number of times.

[Murdoch]

I loved this and while it may be blasphemy to say, I'm glad I watched it at home over in the theater (I just don't think I could last out a 3 1/2 hour movie straight through without becoming impatient).

The brief text pop-ups mentioning how each bit player died was a great addition that really emphasized how Sheeran was more of a witness than a character, a vessel to walk the viewer through this time in US history. Similarly, I think my favorite part of the film was his relationship (or lack thereof) with his daughter Peggy. It's a small part of the film in the same way those text pop-ups are, but that relationship carries great weight and importance to the film as a whole. The subtle way she grew distant from him, not because of any cruelty he inflicted against her but rather because of what she saw and heard around her about him. It felt far more realistic than anything else I've seen about a parent and child growing distant - how the child learns and forms her own opinion of her parent while that parent is largely absent, her view informed by brief moments that linger in her memory. For such a grandiose story, I appreciated that small detail the most

[The Pachyderminator]

I found this rather like Silence in one way: both films left me coming out of the theater rather dazed, but becoming more and more convinced that it's a truly great film while chewing on it over the next few days. It's extraordinary how such a long narrative is sustained so unfalteringly with so few big moments, and those that there are so relatively restrained. So much dramatic heavy lifting is done through incidental episodes, seemingly insignificant conversations. Think of the rare steak anecdote, the vodka watermelon, the weird bit about fish in a car, the repetitive driving shots - everything is there for a reason. I can't think of any part of the running time that was wasted.

[domino harvey]

This movie reminded me of Visconti's Ludwig: a long, mostly unexceptional movie devoted to a mostly unexceptional individual whose greatest impact was on someone more interesting than him. After decades of films in this vein, several from this director alone, I didn't think there was anything else to say about the mob going into this movie, and I came out confirming that thesis. Sure, it's watchable, and doesn't really feel that long (don't lump me with the "It's boooooring" crew, thnx), but I had none of the emotional, intellectual, and/or aesthetic connections just about all of you had to this material, these characters, and/or their narrative journey. I've just seen this film too many times.

[tenia]

There is, I think, a difference here in that Scorsese, for once, absolutely explicitly paints the mob as despicable people who only deserves to end up all alone. No late regret, no christian redemption can change this. They chose to go in this direction, that's their choice, and they need to own it up because they deserve what will happen to them.
It's all the more specific here that, in the end, Sheeran doesn't have any real reason to go working for the mob like he does. He just happens to do it, but has no ambition, no goal. He's mostly apathetic to this. There is some kind of "respect" facade, but it doesn't seem very deep.

However, it did seem overlong to me, with many repetitions that seemed becoming quickly superfluous, especially in its mid-section. It also seemed over-convoluted to death with its 3 framings (the main story, the driving journey and the flashback narrative), which weigh on the movie's pace.

[flyonthewall2983]

It's all the more specific here that, in the end, Sheeran doesn't have any real reason to go working for the mob like he does. He just happens to do it, but has no ambition, no goal. He's mostly apathetic to this. There is some kind of "respect" facade, but it doesn't seem very deep.

I wonder how much of this is Frank's own PTSD after World War II. He grew up a certain way, and then was expected to fight for his country. He comes home, possibly looked at in a better light and saw what he did later on as only a continuation of defending a certain way of life, but to a much more personalized end of providing for his family. He compares Hoffa to Patton and while he doesn't come out and say it certainly saw himself more as a soldier than gangster. It's to that end that he cannot come to understand why his daughter cut him off.

[tenia]

I don't know. It all seems very casual in the movie, like if it had been someone/something else, then so be it, but it was the mob so here you go. I suppose Frank was receptive to this way of life somehow, but he seems blank most of the time. There's a feeling like he's working in a factory, checking in in the morning and out at night. "Oh, the boss has a special request ? Ok" and not much more to it (with the required opportunistic way of life, though).

[nitin]

It’s a mix of an existing lack of moral centre combined with the further desensitisation to human life from the war. The war flashback shown supports this I think as even though he is being asked to do horrible things, he doesn’t seem overly perturbed by it (or at least not by the possible umpteenth killing of german POWs shown in the flashback).

The working in a factory vibe and following orders is kind of the point.

[flyonthewall2983]

And there's no sex, drugs and rock and roll to be titillating enough to see it as an exaggeration. I'm into the first chapter of the book and the movie seems very faithful to the tone set by Sheeran's actual memory of events.

[therewillbeblus]

Something I’ve been thinking about in the last few weeks is how Scorsese’s casting of De Niro seems to have a potentially ulterior motive in lieu of the director’s claims in recent years that his friend is turning in ‘lazy’ (I forget the exact word) performances. I’m not saying De Niro isn’t good here, but while he has plenty of subtly effecting moments, his general demeanor is one of ‘coasting’ and more emotionally apathetic responses than the average Joe. Since the character, and thus the entire movie as I see it, only works if the actor exhibits these passive qualities in every movement, it feels like a kind of hidden trick on Scorsese’s part, an inverse of the invasive tactics filmmakers usually use to manipulate the actors for the final product. I’m not saying this was even a completely conscious decision, but it feels like Scorsese found a way to take what he saw as weaknesses in his friend’s development and use them as invaluable strengths.

[Black Hat]

Something I’ve been thinking about in the last few weeks is how Scorsese’s casting of De Niro seems to have a potentially ulterior motive

Financing. Deniro's the only reason this film got made.

Sure, it's watchable, and doesn't really feel that long (don't lump me with the "It's boooooring" crew, thnx), but I had none of the emotional, intellectual, and/or aesthetic connections just about all of you had to this material, these characters, and/or their narrative journey. I've just seen this film too many times.

Nailed my sentiments exactly.

Only thing I haven't seen anybody remark on and none of my friends have been able to sufficiently answer is

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Why did Pesci take his sunglasses? Was it to make sure he'd see a dead Hoffa and thus serves as a warning?

[therewillbeblus]

Something I’ve been thinking about in the last few weeks is how Scorsese’s casting of De Niro seems to have a potentially ulterior motive

Financing. Deniro's the only reason this film got made.

Right, because nobody wants to distribute a Scorsese movie, or one with Pacino, unless De Niro who is at his career peak is involved.

[Roger Ryan]

...Only thing I haven't seen anybody remark on and none of my friends have been able to sufficiently answer is

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Why did Pesci take his sunglasses? Was it to make sure he'd see a dead Hoffa and thus serves as a warning?

Don't know if your friends suggested this, but...

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...my impression was Bufalino wanted Hoffa to be able to see Sheeran's eyes to put him at ease; Sheeran "hiding" behind the shades might have caused Hoffa to suspect something was up.

[mfunk9786]

Exactly what I thought, Roger. He knows him well enough to know when he returns whether the job is done.

[hearthesilence]

Sight & Sound interview

[knives]

Something I’ve been thinking about in the last few weeks is how Scorsese’s casting of De Niro seems to have a potentially ulterior motive

Financing. Deniro's the only reason this film got made.

Right, because nobody wants to distribute a Scorsese movie, or one with Pacino, unless De Niro who is at his career peak is involved.

Yeah? Scorsese has been open about his financing issues and the need for a big star. DeNiro is still bankable, unlike Pacino who has no Bad Grampa to his name, and having an easy marketing gimmick is greatly beneficial. It wouldn't surprise me if DeNiro was the acceptable comprise of big star that Scorsese needed.

[flyonthewall2983]

Didn't De Niro come to Scorsese with this first, in both of them trying to find something to work on? Beyond just being the first-billed, he was also on the ground floor of this as a producer and his company helped with the distribution.