Second Sight Films (UK)

Milestone, Flicker Alley, Oscilloscope, Cinema Guild...they're all here.
Post Reply
Message
Author
nitin
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:49 am

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#401 Post by nitin » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:16 am

The caps do not great on my monitor either, I agree on that. I was just saying I trust David M’s work over dvdbaver’s caps.

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#402 Post by domino harvey » Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:18 am

I thought AG was crazy until I went back and looked at the cap he's talking about (click and drag the image to another browser window to see it full-size)

Image

What's going on with the shadow under the brim?

User avatar
Adam Grikepelis
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#403 Post by Adam Grikepelis » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:25 am

Glad I’m not (too) crazy, then. There’s issues in the others, but that’s the most obvious example. I’m still willing to believe the Beaver stills are dodgy; the Rewind review mentions Second Sight used an old master so maybe that’s involved too?

dwk, I just changed the number to 05 in the linked image to get the full-size version.
Last edited by Adam Grikepelis on Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
fdm
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:25 pm

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#404 Post by fdm » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:39 am

Adam Grikepelis wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:16 am
Aside from what looks like slightly elevated blacks (though my Macbook isn't calibrated, so not sure how true this is), I'd really love to see it outisde of those DVD Beaver screen caps, because the grain in some of them is verging on solarisation - especially the forehead of the guy in #6.
I've unforetunately not seen it before, but there's definitely something off with the Blu-Ray screencaps - even if it's just the process used by the site. Given Second Sight's recent history, I'd be giving them the benefit of the doubt over DVD Beaver's checkered history, but it'd be nice to have more to go on before buying the set.
The first one that caught my attention was the second set of scans, the headshot of Günter Lamprecht, just zoom in a little bit and see all the artifacts, particularly with his forehead, or the weirdness around his ear. The last one I was looking at just before posting above was the eighth set of scans, the headshot of Barbara Sukova, zoom into that one and look at the bottom of her nose and especially the lips and teeth for that set of artifacts. (Are these screen cap artifacts or actual artifacts of some sort?) And that hat shot too now that you remind me...

User avatar
EddieLarkin
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#405 Post by EddieLarkin » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:41 am

Grain looks odd and very "painterly" in all of the Beaver caps. The very final one reminds me a lot of Criterion's Madame de shambles. There are other strange anomalies too; on the second comparison, check out Bieberkopf's ear (EDIT: fdm just beat me to it). And none of it helped by the weak blacks. If the caps are accurate, this restoration seems to have little in common with the other restorations the Fassbinder Foundation has undertaken, which makes sense if this is just the old 2006 go around that Criterion and Second Sight have already released on DVD.

User avatar
swo17
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#406 Post by swo17 » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:58 am

That's not just "some guy"--it's the main character, Berlin "Alex" Anderplatz

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#407 Post by tenia » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:03 pm

One might be very interested in buying this on BD and thus being curious about the technical merits of the release without having ever seen it before, nor any knowledge that this is the main character.
(nb : I wouldn't have had answered if it wasn't for the pointless joke about the character's name, which reads as making gratuitously fun of AG's seeming lack of knowledge of the show/movie)
Last edited by tenia on Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

kompromiss
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 1:36 am

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#408 Post by kompromiss » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:44 pm

I checked the second disk from my set today (the aforementioned screenshot is from the beginning of the part IV - second disk), and I hadn't find such artifacts (watched it on my TV). I'm not an expert in any way, but to my mind the picture is great.

User avatar
Adam Grikepelis
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#409 Post by Adam Grikepelis » Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:03 pm

swo17 wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:58 am
That's not just "some guy"--it's the main character, Berlin "Alex" Anderplatz
Adam Grikepelis wrote:
Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:16 am
I've unfortunately not seen it before

David M.
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:10 pm

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#410 Post by David M. » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:55 pm

The masters for BERLIN were done around 2006, if memory serves, and during the extremely grainy 16mm opticals, they use quite a bit of grain reduction. So, they won't look quite the same as newer restorations would.

Also, I'm not convinced that the DVD Beaver screen grabs are entirely accurate, either, but without locations to compare to, it's hard to do a side-by-side. If you look at the first image grabbed from episodes VI/VII/VIII (the two women in closeup), at the bottom of the frame, there are temporal noise reduction artefacts that show a kind of blotchy ghost image of either the previous or next scene. I'm pretty certain that's not part of the master (and therefore not part of the disc). That's a common artefact of video processing "enhancements" being done by the graphics card or PowerDVD playback software. I would link directly to the image, but DVDBeaver's site blocks hot-linking in this way.

So, although these masters do have some noise reduction to address what the restoration team must have felt was excessive grain (common thinking for work done around this time), it seems that DVD Beaver's captures show it with extra NR added by their playback software. PowerDVD does have this turned on by default.

No offense to DVDBeaver - they have a great site for getting a rough idea of how different releases stack up - but we've been here so, so many times before regarding image accuracy.

User avatar
david hare
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:01 pm
Location: WellyYeller

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#411 Post by david hare » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:39 pm

Don't lose sight that this was filmed in 16mm I recently dug out the Criterion set and they look terrible. I had hoped this would be from a new scan but there you go. THere's a recent 4K scan for Martha , also shot in 16mm from Studio Canal which does a very good job with grain and shadow detail. Anyway these are ordered paid for and on their way.

User avatar
Adam Grikepelis
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#412 Post by Adam Grikepelis » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:55 am

Thanks David M. I’m not surprised by anything you said, and there’s obviously only so much you can do with master in that condition.

I guess the problem is that DVD Beaver is one of the few sites that regularly do comparison reviews that cover both the extras & the AV, yet combine that with a history of questionable screen captures. So those looking for information before buying keep coming back, and we find ourselves where we are now.

User avatar
fdm
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:25 pm

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#413 Post by fdm » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:31 pm

I didn't particularly mind the Criterion set at the time, knowing the limitations of the source while watching it (7 or 8 years ago). And sure there were a few times where a higher resolution format might have come in handy I remember thinking at the time, but for the most part it was a good watch, plus it is what it is, so how much better can it look?

And that's what I'm wanting to know, and also whether to bother. So I'm interested in seeing some additional reviews and screen caps and so forth. (And also in the meantime I'll pull out the Criterion set to see if I'd think any differently about it nowadays. (My plasma's in better shape than its predecessor was at that time, but it's no projector.))

David M.
Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:10 pm

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#414 Post by David M. » Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:32 pm

Here are some frame dumps taken from the encodes using DGIndexNV.

Here's the controversial hat shot. I'm glad to report there's no banding/solarization actually on the disc.
https://pli.io/94JeY.jpg

A comparison between the DVD Beaver image and the actual picture show that the former has incorrect color and levels as well as losing detail. The horrible added solarization/banding on the DVD Beaver screen grab is probably caused by whatever playback software is screwing around with the picture processing in 8-bit space and truncating.

Image

More grabs:

https://pli.io/94x1U.jpg
https://pli.io/94r6G.jpg
https://pli.io/940ng.jpg
https://pli.io/94uhq.jpg
https://pli.io/94HmT.jpg
https://pli.io/94Bam.jpg
https://pli.io/94AeB.jpg

And for variety, here's one of the optical dissolve shots - two layers of 16mm sized grain:
https://pli.io/94e4W.jpg

On the whole, I don't think the 2006 HD video masters really limit Berlin Alexanderplatz much. It doesn't look like it was restored yesterday (or shot yesterday for that matter, but that goes without saying and is a different discussion entirely), but I think it's comfortably in the area of "good older master" myself.

Anyway - draw your own conclusions and decide if this set is for you based on some frame dumps that actually show what's on the discs.

User avatar
david hare
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:01 pm
Location: WellyYeller

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#415 Post by david hare » Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:24 am

I desperately wish RWF foundation had found the dough to do a brand new scan. But that was never going to happen. I appreciate Davd M's work on this very much but there are massive limitations from the original 2k, the huge degrain and then grading which all affect the current situation. So grain, rez, color (god knows) sharpness and so on are profoundly limited and nobody can get past them in the final run. Canal of all people has recently done a 2K restoration and Blu Ray of Martha which was also shot in 16mm prior to this and - elements must be in good shape, it looks very nice.

User avatar
Adam Grikepelis
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:04 am

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#416 Post by Adam Grikepelis » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:48 am

David M. wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:32 pm
Here's the controversial hat shot. I'm glad to report there's no banding/solarization actually on the disc.
Thanks again, the work's very much appreciated.
I'm not sure what the point is in posting screen grabs with a review (esp. a comparison) when they've altered the look of the disc so much :roll:

nitin
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:49 am

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#417 Post by nitin » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:11 am

Dvdbeaver ‘reviews’ aren’t really reviews though, there is plenty of evidence that Gary doesn’t watch the discs (or at least not all of them). Hence all the references to ‘robust’ which is simply his way of saying higher bitrate so must be better (except where the caps are blatantly obvious).

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Second Sight Films (UK)

#418 Post by tenia » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:35 am

Yes, it's a nice website to have a rough first idea of how it might look like, but Gary's caps have been notoriously altered since DVD era (remember when Nick picked a fight with him over MoC's Nosferatu DVD ? I think there also was La vie de Jésus.) and it truly is a shame he prefered not to change anything to avoid newer caps clashing with older ones instead of ditching the older ones and fixing once and for all instead of keeping generating for years improper caps.
And they are incorrect on many levels : on DVDs, they used to have EE that wasn't on the disc, we know they're incorrect on the colors too, and now seemingly they can generate this kind of filtering leading to banding.

Post Reply