962 Death in Venice

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
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Fred Holywell
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:45 pm

Re: Forthcoming: Death in Venice (Visconti)

#26 Post by Fred Holywell » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:27 pm

For comparison, some images from the Warners DVD and the online restoration clip.

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Toby Dammit
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Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Forthcoming: Death in Venice (Visconti)

#27 Post by Toby Dammit » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:43 pm

God! that's terrible

Noodles1984
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:32 pm

Re: Forthcoming: Death in Venice (Visconti)

#28 Post by Noodles1984 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:56 pm

Toby Dammit wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:43 pm
God! that's terrible
Yes, i don't know the original color palette but i don' like at all this yellowish-sepia coloration...
I will catch a screening of Death in Venice in Bologna on the first days of September... if these are the "official colors" i'm a bit less excited to be honest...but at least it's on the big screen...what do you think about that?
Would you miss a screening if you had the chance?
I hope CC will regrade it...I will also ask detailed info about the 2010 restoration of the Damned...i would like to know if it was a 4k scan

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Fred Holywell
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Re: Forthcoming: Death in Venice (Visconti)

#29 Post by Fred Holywell » Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:55 pm

Noodles1984 wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:56 pm
I will catch a screening of Death in Venice in Bologna on the first days of September... if these are the "official colors" i'm a bit less excited to be honest...but at least it's on the big screen...what do you think about that?
Wondering if you got to the Bologna screening of "Death in Venice" and what you thought of it.

Noodles1984
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:32 pm

Re: Forthcoming: Death in Venice (Visconti)

#30 Post by Noodles1984 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:16 pm

Fred Holywell wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:55 pm
Noodles1984 wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:56 pm
I will catch a screening of Death in Venice in Bologna on the first days of September... if these are the "official colors" i'm a bit less excited to be honest...but at least it's on the big screen...what do you think about that?
Wondering if you got to the Bologna screening of "Death in Venice" and what you thought of it.
Please excuse me for the late reply...it was a stunning experience...the restoration was very good imo, the colors were vibrant and fantastic..i watched it two times,as a movie the first viewing let me a bit cold but only one day before it meant a lot more than the first viewing, i realized i was in front of a real masterpiece and a magnificent work of art(i hope that you understand my bad english expressions)
I asked a lot of people from the Cineteca any info on The Damned, finally the archive responsible said to me that the movie was restored in 2010 in a 2k resolution from the original negative and the english audio track.Color correction in collaboration of a collaborator of Dop De Santis
I hope that in 2019 it will be finally released for it's 50th birthday
Finally, i don't know why but the restoration i saw didn't have this horrible yellowish tint , the skin tones where similar to the warner dvd, the blues where a bit less saturated though.

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Fred Holywell
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Re: Forthcoming: Death in Venice (Visconti)

#31 Post by Fred Holywell » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:54 pm

Noodles1984 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:16 pm
Finally, i don't know why but the restoration i saw didn't have this horrible yellowish tint , the skin tones where similar to the warner dvd, the blues where a bit less saturated though.
Thanks, Noodles, that's encouraging to know. Some hope that the Criterion release won't look anything like the "restoration" clip.

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jsteffe
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:00 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Forthcoming: Death in Venice (Visconti)

#32 Post by jsteffe » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:16 am

Noodles1984 wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:16 pm
Please excuse me for the late reply...it was a stunning experience...the restoration was very good imo, the colors were vibrant and fantastic..i watched it two times,as a movie the first viewing let me a bit cold but only one day before it meant a lot more than the first viewing, i realized i was in front of a real masterpiece and a magnificent work of art(i hope that you understand my bad english expressions)
I asked a lot of people from the Cineteca any info on The Damned, finally the archive responsible said to me that the movie was restored in 2010 in a 2k resolution from the original negative and the english audio track.Color correction in collaboration of a collaborator of Dop De Santis
I hope that in 2019 it will be finally released for it's 50th birthday
Finally, i don't know why but the restoration i saw didn't have this horrible yellowish tint , the skin tones where similar to the warner dvd, the blues where a bit less saturated though.
Thanks, that is encouraging to hear!

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swo17
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Forthcoming: Death in Venice (Visconti)

#33 Post by swo17 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:28 pm


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domino harvey
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Re: 962 Death in Venice

#34 Post by domino harvey » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:01 pm

Those clips at the bottom answer the color question

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Toby Dammit
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:03 am
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: 962 Death in Venice

#35 Post by Toby Dammit » Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:45 am

My only critique: Some chapter of discussion addressed especially to the gay community is missing in the special features.
The film has been very relevant for several generations of homosexual men who have lived the experience of the closet. An experience that new generations mostly don't know. So, what relevance have a film about this matter at 2019?
At the same time, I think it is necessary to talk in depth about the thorniest topic of the film and the book: the love of a mature man for a minor. Some people can say the whole stuff is an apology to ephebophilia - what is not

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Big Ben
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Re: 962 Death in Venice

#36 Post by Big Ben » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:29 pm

It is to my understanding that the novel is less blunt about overt sexual attraction and is more metaphorical? This is very obviously a product of it's time as you most certainly couldn't make this film today.

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david hare
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Re: 962 Death in Venice

#37 Post by david hare » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:32 am

Two things here. The people who do these clips also do their own “grading “ on the footage they’re given. You can still see true whites in the Ritrovato image and from the reports above I am hopefull this won’t be another piss-up. It was 71 Eastman and De Santis and V didnt do anythng fancy in the shooting to create any sort of color “look. It should be Ok if they got good neg elements and an interpos.

Back in the daythere were two schools of gay thought about this and the first one (and its also mine) is that Mann was being more than a little covert about his own sexuality including his homosexuality. The whole fucking family badly needed quality time with Freud.

Anyway my side called bullshit on the “primacy of art” thing and the sublimation of anything as venal as a bit of bum fucking as so vile a betrayal of the ultra refined genius of both Mann and silly old Luchino. My side usually lost that argument which has always led me to feel that culturally Visconti is endorsing this whole “tragic queen” bollocks as thematically substantial. Hence I intensely dislike the movie. How far has he come from his first masterpiece, Ossessione in which the relationship between the lead and “lo Spagnolo” is illustrated with such lyrical detail, down to the bed they share with their rapturous faces in separate close shots.

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david hare
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Re: 962 Death in Venice

#38 Post by david hare » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:38 am

Big Ben wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:29 pm
It is to my understanding that the novel is less blunt about overt sexual attraction and is more metaphorical? This is very obviously a product of it's time as you most certainly couldn't make this film today.
Why on earth not?

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Big Ben
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
Location: Great Falls, Montana

Re: 962 Death in Venice

#39 Post by Big Ben » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:34 am

david hare wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:38 am
Big Ben wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:29 pm
It is to my understanding that the novel is less blunt about overt sexual attraction and is more metaphorical? This is very obviously a product of it's time as you most certainly couldn't make this film today.
Why on earth not?
Let me reiterate. You could make this film today but I don't think it would go over very well. The idea of a much older man leering at a teenaged boy with sexual undertones probably wouldn't instill many modern social media engaged audience with confidence. It's a product of it's time but you cannot look me straight in the face and say that it wouldn't cause a ruckus among the now very vocal, Trump enabled, homophobic Evangelical crowd who would no doubt take it as yet more "proof" that gay people were somehow diseased. I have quite a few gay friends and seeing them suffer openly under the Trump administration causes me a great deal of pain.

I don't have anything against the film but I can't imagine a great many openly malicious and vocal individuals who would attempt to look at this critically at any level. And I don't think that's a controversial statement to make. I'll remind everyone that this is a political reality right now.

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david hare
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Re: 962 Death in Venice

#40 Post by david hare » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:43 am

i am speechless.

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Big Ben
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Re: 962 Death in Venice

#41 Post by Big Ben » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:48 am

david hare wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:43 am
i am speechless.
For what reason? I'm very confused at the moment but if I have offended you I apologize. Perhaps I'm not old enough to understand something? I feel I'm the one at fault here.

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colinr0380
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK

Re: 962 Death in Venice

#42 Post by colinr0380 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:09 am

It is a very differently toned film without the homosexual dimension but I remember a while back having a real problem with Gregory's Two Girls, Bill Forsyth's follow up to his much acclaimed Gregory's Girl for slightly similar reasons, as it played upon a 'moral dilemma' (which should not really be a dilemma at all, but a breach of trust issue) of a teacher lusting after his teenage pupil and following her around. Not so much with the material itself but for the way that the material was handled for laughs and any worrying aspect rather dismissed for misunderstanding hijinks, and for the overriding idea that the very normal hero was in one of those 'exciting' situations where women in every part of his life are inexplicably coming on to him. It kind of ended up retroactively destroying any affection for Gregory's Girl for me, but it taught me an interesting lesson that while I do not think that any material should be off limits, it is the way that things are handled that cause a positive or negative reaction as much as what is onscreen.

I love the tragic dimension to Death In Venice, the Mahler, the wandering alone through the streets, the yearning. It perhaps does not fit well into any era that wants positive, pro-active representations of relatable characters on the cinema screen, but I have always felt that both the context surrounding a film and the film in isolation as its own piece of art is worth assessing. I respect david hare's opinions on the film, and Mr Sausage's earlier in the thread, and I think that they are fair critiques in many ways, but I just cannot have the same reaction to it as they have had.

I do not think Visconti has ever really been about pro-active positive representation in that sense anyway, more the intractable divides between classes and generations. If anything the tragic element of a Visconti, especially in the later period, feels more directed towards the idea of a refined, mannered, repressed era of propriety and etiquette (whether actually existing or a wildly over romanticised notion in itself) passing away for a new generation who seem a bit boorish, uncouth and lacking in respect for their heritage, as well as overly casual about the privileged positions that they occupy (as if a deadly plague is more something that exists 'out there', not within their luxury hotel and especially not able to fester within), something which the younger generation might not even realise that they are embodying in the eyes of their elders. But there is a desire to be young again and back at at the beginning of one's life too, maybe tied up with a bit of jealousy also. There is an element of lust there undoubtedly, but its more about the shifting between eras and the death of a particular way of looking at the world. The way that the object of desire is less inherently desirable in itself but only becomes that way because of the gaze it is receiving. Once the main character dies at the end, the boy has lost that elevation into almost supernaturally idolised Greek God status (if he was ever aware of it, which the film toys with a bit, and might also be the subject of some controversy now in its slightly too long held ambiguous and/or blank 'come on' looks from Tadzio) and is back to just being a normal boy again.

I think what I'm saying is that Bill Forsyth should have had Mahler on the soundtrack of Gregory's Two Girls and John Gordon Sinclair dying from the plague at the end of that film, and I might have been more positive towards it!

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