PAL vs. NTSC in the marketplace

Discuss North American DVDs and Blu-rays or other DVD and Blu-ray-related topics.
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GringoTex
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#1 Post by GringoTex » Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:30 pm

peerpee wrote:This isn't the thread for it, but.... it's not about "regions", it's about PAL vs NTSC.

NTSC shits all over PAL in the global marketplace because the whole of Europe can play NTSC or PAL "out of the box". PAL cannot be played by 99% of Americans. End of story.

Hollywood/America have realised this and are flooding Europe with NTSC discs. In comparison, hardly any PAL discs cross the pond the other way.

There is no level-playing field, the EU don't realise what's going on, and there's effectively zero competition between NTSC and PAL because NTSC discs win everytime.

Why don't European companies release NTSC discs then? Because licensors stipulate in their contracts that European licensees must release PAL.
Can any European retailer legally sell U.S.-produced NTSC discs? ie- you can walk into a store and find a Criterion edition and MoC edition of the same movie on the shelve next to each other?

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backstreetsbackalright
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#2 Post by backstreetsbackalright » Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:42 pm

When I was in Amsterdam in March, you could find practically every kind of DVD in most stores. Criterions, R1s, Japanese imports, etc.

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#3 Post by peerpee » Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:42 pm

It would be illegal to sell a foreign DVD in the UK without bbfc classifcation, and it would also infringe the UK licensee's rights if a foreign version were being sold here for a film that a UK company has the UK rights to. UK authorities could legally remove a Criterion version from a UK brick and mortar store if it were notified.

None of this applies to online sales, and that's where this so-called "protection" (as described above) completely fails.

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Steven H
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#4 Post by Steven H » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:21 pm

peerpee wrote:None of this applies to online sales, and that's where this so-called "protection" (as described above) completely fails.
Isn't there an extra tax built into DVD imports to the UK? If I'm not wrong, this must be a weak deterrent. It's hard to imagine any other way of discouraging this sort of thing that wouldn't do more harm than good. Then again, when it comes to MoC, Bfi, Nouveau, and Tartan (more or less Artificial eye and Optimum UK) aren't people searching out these discs for quality concerns? Most who would go out of their way for these films online are probably aware of the differences.

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GringoTex
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#5 Post by GringoTex » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:35 pm

peerpee wrote:None of this applies to online sales, and that's where this so-called "protection" (as described above) completely fails.
So it's fair to say Criterion's release of The Flowers of St. Francis will take away from MoC's sales?

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#6 Post by peerpee » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:37 pm

Anything sent from outside the UK into the UK of a value greater than £18 GBP is liable to import duty. So everyone sends discs singly to avoid any charge whatesoever, and some people get stung on boxsets (if the full amount is declared on the outside of the package).

I'm of the opinion that there should be no region controls (they don't work, and CDs don't have them!) and that if you want your disc to do well in the global market then release NTSC with a good transfer and good extras.

Unfortunately there are many things preventing European companies from releasing R0 NTSC discs -- so we're stuck with the unfair system we have at the moment, where NTSC rules.

There are thousands of Americans buying European (PAL) discs each week and then realising they can't play them - at all.

Regardless of whether folk are searching out bfi, Nouveaux, Tartan, AE, Optimum, Eureka/MoC or not --- Criterion discs are flooding Europe in their thousands, and zero PAL discs are flooding the US because no-one in the US can play PAL. There is no level-playing field.
Langlois68 wrote:So it's fair to say Criterion's release of The Flowers of St. Francis will take away from MoC's sales?
It will impact severely on our internet sales here in the UK because the major UK etailers play.com and Amazon.co.uk both carry Criterions -- so searching for this film will present a UK buyer with two options (Criterion and MoC), and because of the weak dollar, the Criterion will probably be cheaper.

Most of our sales are internet based now. So the fact that we don't have Criterion's competition in the brick and mortar stores means little.

Good luck to Criterion, it's not their fault. The problem is firmly rooted in the fact that NTSC can be played "out of the box" worldwide, and PAL can only be played "out of the box" in Europe (and other smaller territories like Australia). European firms need to club together and insist on being allowed to release NTSC products, but the whole industry is hampered by pointless region rules and PAL stipulations which produce this unfair global playing field.

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Steven H
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#7 Post by Steven H » Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:47 pm

I also suppose that corporate control of information through advertising revenue might prevent magazines and other forms of media from making it known how easy and cheap it can be to buy a DVD player that plays PAL and NTSC. Wal-Mart has them for about $40. Tell your friends.

I hope Francesco does decently for the few months its on the market solo. It makes you wonder whether announcing releases so far in advance is a good or bad thing (discouraging or inciting NTSC competition.)

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#8 Post by kekid » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:12 pm

I completely agree that the region-coding system lacks any discernible purpose, and should be eliminated. Initially we were told that the system was designed to separate the theatrical release from the DVD release in different parts of the world. If this was its purpose, all old films should be released as region 0. Indeed, any re-release on DVD would justify a region 0, as this would be far removed from the theatrical release. Clearly this is not happening. This raises the question, who gets to decide when not to release a DVD with a region code of 0? If we were to inspire rationality in the decision-makers, we must make an argument that it is more profitable for the issuer to release a DVD with region 0 (and NTSC format). The language of money is more influencial with people who get to make these decisions.

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#9 Post by peerpee » Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:24 pm

Licensors are stipulating region codes and format (PAL or NTSC) to licensees dependent on their location. They believe that region encoding protects other licensees in other territories, but in practice, they're completely wrong.

However, I think the PAL / NTSC issue is much, much more important, especially with regard to the one-way traffic of DVDs leaving the US and Canada for abroad.

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ben d banana
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#10 Post by ben d banana » Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:28 pm

Not that this is exactly happening next week, but won't the potential format upgrade to HD-DVD/Blu-Ray eliminate the PAL/NTSC problem?

With MoC being an internationally run imprint, is it beyond possibility to team up w/ a North American company to release discs for this market as well? Obviously this would entail more elaborate licensing agreements and such, but would it also end up killing the sales of the UK Eureka versions?

Bush's weak $ is working just as he hoped, the international market simply cannot resist such good deals.

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ltfontaine
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#11 Post by ltfontaine » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:36 pm

It makes you wonder whether announcing releases so far in advance is a good or bad thing (discouraging or inciting NTSC competition.)
Perhaps Criterion had "Francesco" in production before they learned about the MoC release? The two companies will probably continue to compete under conditions that are, unfortunately, especially disadvantageous to European companies, as Nick has described, but might not this be a matter of business as usual, with companies in different regions simply releasing films on DVD as the necessary elements become available? Is there any evidence to indicate that this release by Criterion is motivated by especially predatory impulses toward MoC (apart from those that animate capitalism in general) rather than by the desire to introduce a quality title into their collection?

I'm not defending Criterion if they're doing something nasty, rather than conventionally coincidental here, but it's not clear to me that this a case of competitive skullduggery, as some posts on this topic suggest.

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Steven H
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#12 Post by Steven H » Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:28 pm

ltfontaine wrote:I'm not defending Criterion if they're doing something nasty, rather than conventionally coincidental here, but it's not clear to me that this a case of competitive skullduggery, as some posts on this topic suggest.
Innocent as they may be, I wonder how aware they are of market expansion into PAL arenas. It has always struck me as "odd" that when I do a search for a director on amazon.co.uk R2 and R1 titles come up. Ben's comment about the weak dollar made me shudder. Sooner than later we'll have poor cockneys laboring over R1 digipacks in dungeonlike rooms for a dollar an hour in tax free "zones".

Who will crack the whip of change, though? How long before rightsholders start working political magic to eradicate those extra duties? The gears of commerce must be oiled, right? I wonder where the strangely NTSC R0 Bfi Ghatak releases fit into this.

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#13 Post by peerpee » Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:09 am

ltfontaine, there's absolutely no beef with Criterion whatsoever -- the issue is with the flood of NTSC discs hitting Europe, and that applies to all NTSC-releasing companies outside Europe and how their discs are sold at amazon.co.uk and other etailers alongside R2 PAL releases.
I wonder where the strangely NTSC R0 Bfi Ghatak releases fit into this.
I think the bfi were simply able to take advantage (in a nice way) of a little ignorance on the part of the rightsholder.

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GringoTex
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#14 Post by GringoTex » Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:53 am

flixyflox wrote:Btw I think it was a totally fucking appalling decision of Criterion to release Francesco, and then under the hideous American title.
Why? Theoretically, the markets are separate. Why should U.S. audiences be denied a dvd of the film because European audiences have one?

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#15 Post by peerpee » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:28 am

I'm personally very, very glad that Criterion are releasing FRANCESCO in NTSC-land. I do disagree with "THE FLOWERS OF ST. FRANCIS" title though.

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GringoTex
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#16 Post by GringoTex » Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:47 am

peerpee wrote:I'm personally very, very glad that Criterion are releasing FRANCESCO in NTSC-land. I do disagree with "THE FLOWERS OF ST. FRANCIS" title though.
How does MoC determine whether to keep the title in the original language or not? Criterion's choice would appear particulalry bad, as it changes the meaning of the original title (I'm guessing the changed title was for the original American or British theatrical release).

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#17 Post by peerpee » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:01 am

Pre-Criterion's DVD, what everyone knew to be "THE FLOWERS OF ST. FRANCIS" was the distributor-mutilated US version. This is the version Scorsese saw in the early 70s, and the version that most Americans are familiar with. It replaces all the intertitles with English narration, has a non-Rossellini prologue, and is missing an entire section from near the end.

The version that MoC have released and Criterion are releasing is the original Rossellini Italian cut, released to Italian audiences in 1950. The title of this version was FRANCESCO GIULLARE DI DIO.

To call this version "THE FLOWERS OF ST. FRANCIS" is simply to perpetuate the inelegant 1950s retitling of the US distributor -- and it can't be attributed to Criterion being shy of foreign titles, they've released TOUCHEZ PAS AU GRISBI, LA COMMARE SECCA, A NOUS LA LIBERTE, and LE NOTTI BIANCHE (amongst many others).

It was a perfect opportunity for them to undo the US distributor's handiwork.

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ltfontaine
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#18 Post by ltfontaine » Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:35 am

Nick just a thought but is there any way MoC can design some sort of contractual arrangenment to release simultaneous NTSC R0 or whatever versions of new titles?
Tartan, at least, operates in both worlds, releasing titles in regions 1 and 2. Other than companies, including Criterion, that release an occasional R0, and apart from those based in Asia where, seemingly, anything goes, are there outfits in the west that market DVDs encoded in more than one region?

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#19 Post by peerpee » Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:26 pm

Interestingly, Warner/Rhino have just issued Brian Wilson's 2 x disc "SMILE" in the UK as NTSC (region coded 2, 3, 4, 5).

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ben d banana
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#20 Post by ben d banana » Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:49 am

North America is full of cheap DVD players that are region free and PAL compatible (check nerd-out.com, or a variety of other sites, or check the multi-region player advice on this very forum), but really, most of the people who buy/rent DVDs could care less about import DVDs or consider paying extra for them. Those that are interested have, or easily can, make the effort to do so. Certainly it's more of a secret here than other countries (multi-region NTSC/PAL players aren't on the front page of Amazon.com like they are on Amazon UK) and MoC (and the like) would be able to sell a few more copies if they could release NTSC discs. However, w/ the current $/GBP/Euro situation I imagine the price would still be a severely limiting factor. Hell, I have to pay w/ my Canadian Pesos.

As for the compatibility issues (and correct me if I'm wrong), there are more lines of resolution in a PAL signal, hence too much information for an NTSC TV.

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kieslowski_67
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#21 Post by kieslowski_67 » Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:57 pm

The bottom line is, for art movie fans, sticking to only region 1 NTSC release is like 'eyes wide shut'. You need to 'open your eyes'.

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#22 Post by colinr0380 » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:43 am

facct wrote:why is it that most Americans aren't able to watch PAL movies (but the reverse isn't true)?
I think it is to do with regions. Region 1 being Canada/US is completely NTSC but Region 2 covers both Europe which is PAL and also Japan, which I think is NTSC, so for players to be compatible with all Region 2 discs they have to be able to play both PAL and NTSC, whereas the same need is not there for Region 1.

Personally I'm fine with both Criterion and Masters of Cinema releasing this film. They both have separate markets and instead of thinking of this as being shafted by one or other of the companies, we should see this as an opportunity to get some different extras, similar to the Onibaba disc with the interview on the Criterion and the commentary on the Masters of Cinema. I think that the main area of competition should be in the extras, then whichever version is chosen the film is the same quality - the only variation is in what else is on there (and if the viewer is only interested in seeing the film there is little difference which they get). It is a little annoying to have to consider "double dipping" but if there is enough incentive to do so then I'm sure people will think about getting both. This does not seem to be a case of 'not having done it right the first time' that I think is a major annoyance, or a case of 'milking it for all its worth' that seems to occur with some of Universal's major film releases, to name just one company, but more the schedules coinciding. The restoration was probably the catalyst and both companies both decided to start work at the same time. You know what they say about great minds!

But I'm also concerned of whether this is not just a case of sour grapes? If the Criterion came out just before Masters of Cinema (and I think it is just a pure coincidence that both were working on the same thing and so it would also just be a matter of chance which one came out before the other), would there have been the same amount of invective thrown against MoC?
peerpee wrote:To call this version "THE FLOWERS OF ST. FRANCIS" is simply to perpetuate the inelegant 1950s retitling of the US distributor -- and it can't be attributed to Criterion being shy of foreign titles, they've released TOUCHEZ PAS AU GRISBI, LA COMMARE SECCA, A NOUS LA LIBERTE, and LE NOTTI BIANCHE (amongst many others).

It was a perfect opportunity for them to undo the US distributor's handiwork.
I'd agree with that, there seems to be a strange logic behind the title choices - perhaps something to do with the individual attitudes of the producers of each disc. I'm not that fond of the english title of CHILDREN OF PARADISE myself (losing the nuance of 'Children of the Gods'). It must be very difficult to choose the title that might be correct but unwieldy, or one which is wrong or poorly chosen (perhaps like GRAND ILLUSION) but which is the one that the film is more commonly known under in that territory through previous releases.

With the Francesco, giullare di Dio disc, it was very interesting to see the consultation over the title held on this group. It shows how difficult the balance between art and commerce can be even in this simple matter.

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Andre Jurieu
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#23 Post by Andre Jurieu » Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:21 am

colinr0380 wrote: But I'm also concerned of whether this is not just a case of sour grapes? If the Criterion came out just before Masters of Cinema (and I think it is just a pure coincidence that both were working on the same thing and so it would also just be a matter of chance which one came out before the other), would there have been the same amount of invective thrown against MoC?
No, if the roles were reversed, I'm pretty sure we would rightfully all be thanking MoC for coming up with another great release that featured a splendid set of extras and we would all praise peerpee & Co. for their fine work (just as we did for Onibaba). Yet, just because Criterion is painted as the "Big Bad American Corp who are hell-bent on practicing brash commerce, destroying fair trade, exploiting anything and everything in search of a dirty little profit, muscling out our little underdog, and pouring sugar in out gas-tank after knocking up our little sister" in this scenario, they are being criticized for simply putting a product out within their own marketplace. I have no idea why, but when Criterion steps up against Universal and Sony, we all raise our glasses to toast the little guy who somehow managed to beat the system and bring art to the pitiful masses. Now, we've just decided that Criterion is purposely attempting to destroy MoC with one release. Do we honestly believe Criterion is purposely targeting MoC and attempting to wipe them off the international DVD marketplace? Is it Criterion's fault that some consumers in Europe choose to import their DVDs? I'm glad the guys at MoC have more of a level-head and clear perspective than some of the rest of us. In displaying a calm demeanor, they further my confidence that they have an adept business sense which will allow them to continue doing business.
colinr0380 wrote:With the Francesco, giullare di Dio disc, it was very interesting to see the consultation over the title held on this group. It shows how difficult the balance between art and commerce can be even in this simple matter.
I have to side with peerpee on this one as well. If the DVD will not use the original US cut, then why should the US title be required, especially since the original title sounds so much more pleasing and Criterion has routinely used the original-language title in the past - though their decisions do seem arbitrary. Still, it's an interesting discussion regarding the decision and the possible legal rules involved.
Last edited by Andre Jurieu on Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gary Tooze
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#24 Post by Gary Tooze » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:27 am

Tartan, at least, operates in both worlds, releasing titles in regions 1 and 2.
But I believe ALL Tartan NTSC are from PAL source (unconverted), so they are fraught with artifacts and associated deficiencies.

Best,
Gary

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Darth Lavender
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#25 Post by Darth Lavender » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:10 pm

At first, I thought this was (bussiness wise) a dumb move from Criterion considering that most any serious Teshigahara fan (ie. anyone willing to pay Criterion prices for his films) would already have (at least) the MoC Pitfall and Face Of Another, so were Criterion could have made a small fortune with a long-awaited Special Edition of "Woman Of The Dunes," they're going to end up only selling this 4-disk set to those very few Teshigahara fans without multi-region players and maybe the even smaller number of Criterion fanboys who'll pay $80 for 1 movie.

But, reading this thread, I can see that I was wrong. With the number of people who'll actually pay that much for one movie, Criterion was clearly right (bussiness wise) to do sell the movie this way. Actually, I think Criterion should seriously considering upping all of their DVDs another $10 per disk (or maybe $30 for the smaller releases, $40 with commentaries and $50 with commentary and a second disk.) Are you listening Criterion? Sure you'd lose a very small number of customers (including me,) but I think this thread demonstrates that people will pay whatever exorbitant price for as many redundant films as you want to sell.

[/rant]

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