Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

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Big Ben
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1251 Post by Big Ben » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:50 am

Mr Sausage wrote:I enjoyed The Last Jedi a lot, and enjoy thinking about it even more. I appreciated that, while The Force Awakens was a lark--fun, amiable, unburdened by seriousness--The Last Jedi is a heavier film, one built around the role of failure and how success is a deferred and contingent thing. As has been pointed out above, it's a film about plans not working--indeed, almost no larger plan works out, leading some of the plotting to seem purposeless to many viewers.
I think this is why it works for me as well. Star Wars lore has always in my opinion taken itself far too seriously.
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And now that some plot points have been shown to been fruitless endeavors it's certainly angered quite a few people. To each their own I suppose though. The animosity I see surround what Luke "should have been" is what makes me question a lot of things though. He was never this perfect hero and people were shocked to find Johnson reaffirm this? It feels almost like someone pointing out all those heroes you had in your past weren't exactly these knights in shining armor. And in confirming this Johnson seems to have opened the hellmouth. The Last Jedi is by no means a perfect film but it certainly feels like the most self conscious one. Something I think Star Wars desperately needed.
There are other things to talk about, but for me the interesting thing is summed by how the important, burning questions of The Force Awakens--who is Snoke, what is Rey's parentage--have unimportant answers. I like that.
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I see a lot of animosity online about this, mainly from the people who are made their fan theories weren't accommodated. In the end I though that the message, specifically with Rey and other plot points was that anyone could achieve greatness (The young child draws the broom to his hand with the force.) In short the Force isn't just something the brooding and arrogant Jedi can use.
I do wonder how they'll deal with Carrie Fisher however. She clearly finished all her scenes as we all know but resolving her very real world death without offending people...isn't a job I'd want even if you'd pay me.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1252 Post by swo17 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:54 am

They should handle it exactly like NewsRadio handled Phil Hartman's death.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1253 Post by Finch » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:25 am

They could simply start Episode 9 with Leia's funeral. Problem fixed.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1254 Post by McCrutchy » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:48 pm

Finch wrote:They could simply start Episode 9 with Leia's funeral. Problem fixed.
Well, in all likelihood, Leia wasn't going to survive Episode IX, anyway, so I'm sure from a series writing standpoint, nobody's that fussed. In these people's minds, I'm sure Leia was never there for much more than fan service, anyway--
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her "job" could have been done by any older female character, as Rain Johnson proved.
I will admit that I'm (slightly) morbidly curious as to where the franchise will go, only in the sense that it is becoming so bland that it would be amusing to see future entries succeed or fail. I suppose Disney's Marvel films prove that people want this kind of entertainment, but I wonder if it's not all coming to a boiling point, and if as a result, one of these films is eventually a relative bomb (i.e. less than, say $800 million, or less than $300 million domestic). I certainly know that this trilogy is over for me, and I can't see myself seeing any of the future films if they continue in the spirit of these two.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1255 Post by bearcuborg » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:18 pm

McCrutchy wrote:
Finch wrote:They could simply start Episode 9 with Leia's funeral. Problem fixed.
In these people's minds, I'm sure Leia was never there for much more than fan service, anyway--
I don’t think we saw the same movies...Leia for the most part, was used magnificently in this film-it’s clear they had something in mind for her in IX as well. Unfortunately Carrie never shared a scene with Adam Driver-and that has to be a monumental challenge for JJ and company to solve.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1256 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:14 pm

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I thought the fact that ultimately Like was merely a "just barely good enough" hero was fine.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1257 Post by Feiereisel » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:16 pm

bearcuborg wrote:
McCrutchy wrote:
Finch wrote:They could simply start Episode 9 with Leia's funeral. Problem fixed.
In these people's minds, I'm sure Leia was never there for much more than fan service, anyway--
I don’t think we saw the same movies...Leia for the most part, was used magnificently in this film-it’s clear they had something in mind for her in IX as well. Unfortunately Carrie never shared a scene with Adam Driver-and that has to be a monumental challenge for JJ and company to solve.
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Given that both movies end with Kylo squaring off with a member of the central trio and that a significant moment in THE LAST JEDI involved Kylo deciding not to blow up the bridge of Leia’s command ship, it’s not unreasonable that IX would have culminated with some kind of Leia and Kylo moment that would tie the previous films together.

I might be trying too hard to “solve” the story, but Rey and Kylo’s arcs are both about mothers and fathers (literal or otherwise); they were driving toward something that will now need to be adapted or reworked in light of the circumstances.
Also, I’ve always taken the term “fan service” to mean creators actively pandering to hardcore fans. While there definitely has been some original trilogy fan service in these new films, I think the creators have done a great job of not stuffing them with pointless and intrusive winks and nods. The “significant moment” in THE FORCE AWAKES and much of THE LAST JEDI do not read like fan service to me. They either add to or actively undercut the events of the original films in considered—and obviously controversial—ways.

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Big Ben
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1258 Post by Big Ben » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:15 pm

bearcuborg wrote: I don’t think we saw the same movies...Leia for the most part, was used magnificently in this film-it’s clear they had something in mind for her in IX as well. Unfortunately Carrie never shared a scene with Adam Driver-and that has to be a monumental challenge for JJ and company to solve.
And this is my concern. If you kill her off a certain way it looks like she died from being sad about "x" which isn't a good look. I think people will be more lenient because Fisher actually died in reality but it's going to take some effort to make it work in a manner that won't cause problems.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1259 Post by swo17 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:40 pm

$10 says
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the opening crawl announces that Kylo Ren has killed Leia.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1260 Post by aox » Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:28 pm

swo17 wrote:$10 says
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the opening crawl announces that Kylo Ren has killed Leia.
Nice, and in the SW universe that could be a stand alone 2 1/2 film in and of itself like Rouge 1!

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1261 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:41 pm

Solo has been scheduled for more reshoots. The film is out in May.

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Big Ben
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1262 Post by Big Ben » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:47 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:Solo has been scheduled for more reshoots. The film is out in May.
There was an article on one of the film sites (I apologize profusely for not remembering which one.) that said Disney and Lucasfilm were simply preparing for Solo to bomb because it's a Frankenstein at this point. The veracity of that statement remains to be seen but we all know how troubled productions work.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1263 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:05 pm

There's nothing like trying to fix something that probably was never broken and irreparably breaking it

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Brian C
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1264 Post by Brian C » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:16 pm

I just can’t believe Ron Howard hasn’t been able to right the ship.

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Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1265 Post by Werewolf by Night » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:15 pm

I don’t have a dog in this race, but remember that Rogue One was also considered “troubled,” had extensive reshoots, and ended up being critically successful and making a billion dollars. But I would also totally believe Ron Howard would break something that wasn’t broken. (He’s no Tony Gilroy.)
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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1266 Post by R0lf » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:16 pm

If they're rounding out the Skywalker story altogether having episode IX start with Ren visiting a Padme/Leia family grave on Naboo with no other explanation on how Leia went would be a decent way to go. They could even throw in a force ghost Luke conversation.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1267 Post by McCrutchy » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:41 pm

Werewolf by Night wrote:I don’t have a dog in this race, but remember that Rogue One was also considered “troubled,” had extensive reshoots, and ended up being critically successful and making a billion dollars. But I would also totally believe Ron Howard would break something that wasn’t broken. (He’s no Tony Gilroy.)
To be fair, though. I've always thought that from Disney/Lucasfilm's perspective, Rogue One might have been a small disappointment, in that it only grossed about 50% of what The Force Awakens did. I mean, they could never have realistically hoped to top $2.068 billion, but, especially with the creative use of the original film (e.g. Darth Vader), I wonder if they weren't hoping for about $500 million more than the $1.056 billion they got, which would have probably confirmed audience rapture vis a vie the first film. Now, with The Last Jedi slipping well down the top ten for last weekend, I'm not sure $1.5 billion is on the cards for the sequel, either. Again, I'm not saying these are box office failures, but usually, the goal with a sequel is to try to gross more the previous film, not make a lot, but still a lot less. Therefore, I think a lot could hinge on how well Solo ends up doing.

Now, I can't see Solo being a bomb (obviously, in relative terms), but I wonder if it will take in as much as Rogue One did. I'm fairly certain society says that a male-fronted "original" Star Wars film should do better than one fronted by a female, so that works in the film's favor. More importantly, I know I really don't have any desire to see a Han Solo film without Harrison Ford in it (much less with another, younger Han Solo), so the marketing and trailers are really going to have to wow me to get me to consider going, especially after the dumpster fire that was The Last Jedi has soured me on seeing Episode IX.

I am also cognizant of the fact that we've just had Batman/Superman film and a Justice League film underperform and bomb respectively, so we do have to be prepared for the idea that peak Star Wars has come and gone, and that Disney may have to settle for each subsequent film in this cycle making less than the film before it, at least in terms of the "sequel trilogy" versus the "anthology films". It's worth remembering, too, that we've had two cycles of three films prior to this, but that the Disney cycle is five (or six?) films, which is a lot of Star Wars over a short period of time.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1268 Post by matrixschmatrix » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:26 pm

I doubt that Disney was especially let down by the success of Rogue One- it was an experiment, to some degree, to see if people would be interested in Star Wars stories outside of the core saga, and it wound up being one of the top ten grossing movies of all time and making roughly quadruple its budget back. I don't think the studio was expecting a weak movie, though, despite the recuts and so forth, as they still gave it a prime release date and a lot of long term promotion. The sequels making less than the first was also the way both previous trilogies worked, so I doubt they expected this one to be bigger, as both it and The Last Jedi are darker and more challenging movies than the The Force Awakens.

Solo, on the other hand, is coming out in five months (giving it very little breathing room after The Last Jedi), and still has basically no promotion beyond a very bare teaser poster- no trailer, no merch, nothing to get people hyped up. I think this movie is going to be a real mess, and they don't even know how to sell it yet.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1269 Post by All the Best People » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:42 am

Even if they knew how to market it, I think they still wouldn't be pushing Young Solo yet as they don't want to stomp on the tail of The Last Jedi (which has basically been on a pace for ~$1.3B WWBO from its opening, which I should think they'll be pleased with). This six-month turnaround between the movies, though long planned, still seems unusual, and feels like oversaturation of the marketplace regardless of the eventual quality of Solo. TFA was in theaters to mid-April and R1 was into the first week of May; it's a challenge to market another film in the franchise when there's still one hanging out on big screens.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1270 Post by Brian C » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:14 am

I dunno, usually the release of any given Marvel movie is used to unveil/ramp up the marketing for the next Marvel movie. If anything, the success of THE LAST JEDI makes it even more suspicious that Disney hasn’t used it to piggyback SOLO on.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1271 Post by McCrutchy » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:05 am

I have to agree with Brian. Disney doesn't mind a sort of symbiosis when it comes to these and Marvel films, and I really don't think they're concerned about any new film denting the box office of the previous one if they are advertising both at the same time.

What is concerning, especially from a long-term perspective, is how the sequel trilogy is attempting to jettison the original trilogy, when the anthology films are thus far seemingly so indebted to the original trilogy. From a franchise perspective, I don't know if I like the idea of one trilogy looking forward, as another (potential) trilogy looks back. To be honest, if Solo is a success, and then the third film is a Boba Fett film and is a success, that could damage the future of the franchise if subsequent films and trilogies can only move further away from the original trilogy.

Also, I'm not sure what Disney was thinking about when they bought Lucasfilm, but so far, we haven't had a ton of character continuity outside of specific trilogies, which means this isn't going to be like the MCU, where the same actors/characters show up in five, six, or seven films over a period of several years. For example, Daisy Ridley has said she's not interested in playing Rey beyond Episode IX, and while everyone has time to change their minds (...Daniel Craig...), it does raise the question of where Disney would go if they cannot continue Rey's storyline. Do they go back and mine the existing lore again, or do they risk moving further away from the original trilogy? If so, will any of the new trilogy actors or characters be involved? These are important questions, and at the speed Disney insists on moving with the franchise, there will have to be solutions in short order.

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1272 Post by Ribs » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:15 am

I mean, we have a general idea what the plan is, which is that after Episode IX as far as we know the only spin-off film that’s in development is visionary director Stephen Daldry’s Obi-Wan film. After that, Rian Johnson’s unrelated trilogy will probably take the place of the “main” movies. It’s expected there will be very few if any old characters and it will be different types of story set in a different part of the universe. There’s definitely still plenty of other avenues to mine in the between years for those, which might include Poe Dameron or some of the other new characters. (I’m totally expecting some kind of “Star Wars Zero” about the Old Republic, which frankly would be the first thing I’d imagine for a new trilogy, but Johnson seems more interested in doing his own thing, which is probably for the best.)

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1273 Post by Shrew » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:16 am

Is the Daldry/Obi-wan thing anymore than rumor? Given that nothing of that has been announced yet, nothing has come up to replace whatever Josh Trank was working on, and the only news of new Star Wars is Johnson's trilogy, I wouldn't be surprised if Disney were stepping away or reconsidering the one-off films. Each project in "Star Wars Stories" has had its share of behind the scenes troubles, so perhaps they prefer the greater control and direction that trilogies might offer them. Or, as Ribs sort of gets at above, maybe Johnson's films take up the main/trilogy mantle, and then the new spin-off films focus on Finn/Rey/Poe/etc. rather than another trilogy centered on those characters (single films probably being easier to negotiate contracts for). I imagine this is McCrutchy's nightmare scenario.

And while I don't think Rouge One was a failure or disappointment to Disney at large, it does seem to have failed at the secondary task of building up an audience in the Chinese market. Despite Donnie Yen and Jiang Wen, Rouge One earned half the receipts of Force Awakens in China, and now Last Jedi has flat-out bombed there. That, more than any distancing from the original trilogy, is probably the biggest threat to the franchise's future/Disney's main concern. Indeed, it makes it more likely that Disney will pursue new avenues, characters, and settings, rather than lean on nostalgia for the original films (which is non-existent in China).

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1274 Post by swo17 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:28 am

Rouge One
Is that what they called the porno version?

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Re: Star Wars Franchise (1977-∞)

#1275 Post by aox » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:30 am

According to Ewan McGregor, “There’s a lot of talk, and I’d be happy to play him again, but I don’t know anything more than you do.”

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