1014 Roma (2018)

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dda1996a
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#76 Post by dda1996a » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:16 am

Big difference between watching things on your TV and on your phone

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furbicide
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#77 Post by furbicide » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:18 am

Look, I saw many of the films that made me fall in love with cinema on VHS on a medium-sized tube TV, which may be superior to watching on a phone, but by how much? (I mean, how far away do you sit from your phone in this situation? If you're holding a phone up in front of you vs sitting on the other side of the room from your TV, it's about the same size, right?) But I do hope I can catch this one at the cinema, because if nothing else at least it's guaranteed to be an uninterrupted, immersive experience.

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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#78 Post by McCrutchy » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 am

I was thinking, given that Cuarón is an Oscar darling and that the film is likely to get at least nominated for a slew of awards, I can only assume it's something of a guaranteed Best Picture nominee. Well, if that happens, what are Netflix going to do then, I wonder? Surely that would make a wide theatrical release harder to avoid, especially as chains like AMC have done Best Picture showcases in the past, which as far as I am aware, involve most or all of the AMC locations nationwide (though the showcases themselves tend to be one-off marathons at weekends). Has there even been a Best Picture nominee that didn't receive a wide theatrical release, at least after its nomination? Surely not in recent memory.

I mean, if this film were to become the Best Picture front-runner, which I would say has a chance of happening, then I think things would get really interesting. Could you essentially blacklist a Best Picture winner from a wide theatrical release? Could you essentially blacklist it from home video? I guess we might have the answers to these questions in a few months.

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Big Ben
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#79 Post by Big Ben » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:11 am

McCrutchy wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:03 am
I was thinking, given that Cuarón is an Oscar darling and that the film is likely to get at least nominated for a slew of awards, I can only assume it's something of a guaranteed Best Picture nominee. Well, if that happens, what are Netflix going to do then, I wonder?
I have an answer to that! Netflix is expanding the film to over six hundred global theaters in attempt to well, push it out there.

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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#80 Post by nitin » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:24 am

There is nothing wrong is seeing films on home video or a phone or whatever, I have previously watched the bulk of my cinema via dvds on a decent unspectacular HD television that my parents had. But the issue is more whether whther streming will be the only way of watching some of Netflix’s films or whether they will get theatrical and/or BD/4K releases too for those wanting that experience.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#81 Post by FrauBlucher » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:08 am

dda1996a wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:16 am
Big difference between watching things on your TV and on your phone
Right. Huge difference. Especially with many people having home theater systems that make watching a film like Lawrence of Arabia something special and the next best thing to being in an actual theater. But a phone? It can't possibly have the same impact. If phones and little tablets become the norm of movie viewing then it will change the way films are made by young filmmakers. There will be no more David Lean visually spectacular and breathtaking type films.

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Brian C
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#82 Post by Brian C » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:54 am

I'm not sure I have any super-coherent thoughts on this film but I'm gonna run them off the keyboard anyway...

1) I suppose overall I thought pretty similarly about this film as I did Children of Men and Gravity, which is that I admire it to some extent but simultaneously felt a little put off by it. I guess I roughly agree with mfunk's thoughts. It's not that I feel that bravura tricks are off-putting per se, it's just that I tend to get the sneaky feeling that Cuaron uses these tricks to hide a lack of substance.

2) For example, one instance is just a downright cheat:
SpoilerShow
The furniture store scene, which I believe is all shot in one take (or at least made to look like it), when Cleo and the grandmother get a gun put in their face by a gunman who is just offscreen ... and then the camera turns and we see it's Fermin. I don't even mind the coincidental nature of this encounter - it makes sense that Fermin would be involved in something like this, so it might as well be made part of the narrative, but to shoot and then reveal him in this way just makes no sense to me. Cleo would have seen him at first and been completely preoccupied with him, so choosing to pan away and show the murder is inexplicable from any meaningful point-of-view argument. Nothing matters in that moment except that Fermin is pointing a gun in her face. Cuaron's choice to present the scene this way both heightens the sense that the coincidence is absurd, while simultaneously cheapening the dramatic moment.
3) That said, some moments are really very nice. The entire scene at the cousins' ranch (or whatever), with the kids shooting the cap guns, the adults shooting the real guns, the simultaneous New Year's parties, the surreal forest fire, the next day comedown in the fields where Cleo reminisces about her village ... all of that was really beautiful, and I felt I really understood in those scenes the layers of sensory textures that Cuaron was trying to build a film out of. The climactic beach scene was also pretty amazing, and a good use of a long take, and I really don't understand how that scene was done so hat's off.

4) Overall, though, I find myself left with memories of individual moments in isolation, instead of the feeling that I experienced something as a whole. Even though it's only been a couple of hours since I watched it, I can't seem to quite piece together where 135 minutes went. Of course it's kind of an episodic film by nature, but a lot of it has already evaporated. I don't think it's very compelling as a domestic drama, despite every critic in the world obligingly noting how PERSONAL it all is.

5) I didn't notice the absence of a score.

6) On a technical note, god I wish Landmark could get a decently illuminated lamp in their projectors and figure out a way to get proper masking for scope films in all their auditoriums, although on the other hand, exposed letterboxing is better than the way they used to do it, which was to simply project onto a roughly 2.1:1 screen and just not worry about it.

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Persona
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#83 Post by Persona » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:47 pm

I had figured I was going to save my first viewing for the theater but after Kermode's comments about how he really admired the film but felt like he needed to see it again because he was marveling in the technical virtuosity to the point of distraction, I'm wondering if I might be better served watching it at home this weekend and let that kind of "break it in" for me before I make the drive down to the theater showing it.

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mfunk9786
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#84 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:00 pm

Really enjoyed reading your thoughts, Brian. Almost exactly how I felt when I saw it. Except you didn't see the ghost of George Clooney.

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Brian C
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#85 Post by Brian C » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:18 pm

Yeah that was just nuts. Although, is it just me, or did one of the astronauts have Sandra Bullock’s face briefly superimposed over him?

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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#86 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:29 pm

LISTEN. The guy looks like Clooney. I MADE A MISTAKE, OK

:oops:

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dda1996a
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#87 Post by dda1996a » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:52 pm

Funny thing is, I feel like you guys, but I love Y Tu Mama and Children of Men very much, but found this much more brilliant in it's film-making than actually caring very much for what happened. My friends loved it though

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DeprongMori
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#88 Post by DeprongMori » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:12 pm

Just saw this screened last night and found it a powerful experience. Cuarón pulled together the best elements of his filmmaking in this one.

FWIW, I’m almost certain the cinematic astronaut in question was Gene Hackman. It’s been ages since I’ve seen Marooned (1969) though, so can’t speak to that particular moment — I first saw it in its original theatrical run, and most recently as Space Travelers on Mystery Science Theatre 3000 in 1992.

If you were wondering what the referenced films were and what their significance is for Cuarón, Vulture has an article on it.

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Persona
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#89 Post by Persona » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:56 am

Cuaron's best film and this guy made THE BEST HARRY POTTER.

I imagine some will stan harder for Children of Men and Gravity or Y Tu Mama Tambien but, for me, this was Cuaron finally bringing all his technical abilities and signatures together into something personal and deeply expressive. Sure, it's quiet and episodic and doesn't necessarily have that blow-you-back-in-your-seat quality of some of his other films---but it is rich in detail, gorgeously observed, and feels pretty singular. I mean, you can point out some influences and comparisons but it feels kind of pointless. This is a unique movie that only Alfonso Cuaron could have made.

Some have criticized the film for being a bit thematically listless or whatever but I think Cuaron was just walking a very fine line and he pulled the balancing act off like only a master could. The film is personal but Cuaron doesn't focus on himself. It's intimate but pulled back in its perspective. The camera tells the story but it's also, simultaneously, telling many other stories. For about an hour and a half the film is just immersing you in this world, with this family, and primarily with their maid Cleo. And then the hits come and they take you aback with how much they hit you, because up until that point you may think you've just been riding along in the car or walking the streets with these characters, not really knowing them. It's a film that shows you that empathy can come not just from dramatic constructs but from simply time spent in a place with people, if that time spent is immersive enough. And in Roma it definitely is. It doesn't need 3D or VR or anything like that. Just immaculate photography and a sick sound mix and characters that feel authentic. Well, and lots of great art direction, since it's a period piece.

So now I will indulge in the comparison game just a bit because you can see Fellini or Tati or Pawlikowski or Cuaron's own work, but really this is a singular film. I am trying to think of another film that so effectively couches intimacy in detailed largesse, with such elegantly complex mise-en-scene and long takes with all-inclusive depth of field and framing--not to mention one of the more enveloping and transporting sound mixes ever. I've never seen anything quite like it (a personal, emotional, neo-realist Playtime?), and I'm very thankful for it.

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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#90 Post by senseabove » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:15 pm

I'm seeing a lot of vague, circular tweeting from critics about the wrong-headed "backlash" criticism of Roma's privilege, other critics retweeting those with the equivalent of eyeroll emoji, etc... So we're healthily on our way through the backlack/backlash backlash/backlash backlash backlash cycle about who gets to be a liberal anyway, etc.

But no one's pointing fingers at who's actually getting salty about it in the first place? I've seen one ridiculous completely unsympathetic review in the Economist that strikes me as a prime example of willful misinterpretation, as the author seems to think social justice is synonymous with line count, regardless of a character's pointed quietness in a film whose first dialogue is about who gets to speak how and when. But I wouldn't expect a nameless review in the Economist to prompt this level of vague defense...

Are there good-faith or at least notable critiques provoking the backlash backlash round of cycle that I'm missing, or are we just skipping the backlash phase now?

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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#91 Post by mfunk9786 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:17 pm

What a tame film to be creating such a fuss about - I haven't seen what you're describing, but going to The Economist for film criticism (or anything) might be a mistake, for one

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senseabove
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#92 Post by senseabove » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:43 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:17 pm
What a tame film to be creating such a fuss about - I haven't seen what you're describing, but going to The Economist for film criticism (or anything) might be a mistake, for one
That was kinda my point... I feel like there's gotta be someone more prominent making an argument that the movie (and praise for it) is ignoring class and race issues.

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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#93 Post by palefire » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:33 pm

What a disappointing film. While the technical aspects are all on point in of themselves, none of them work in service of the story. People talk about the great cinematography of Roma, but I have to disagree. Great cinematography is effective. Cuarón opts for this objective POV for his camera. His narrative does nothing for the story. Most directors use objective POV to make some sort of narrative statement which adds subtext to the film. In Roma, there is none of that. We simply have a story about a maid told from a distant perspective.

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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#94 Post by nitin » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:00 pm

Saw it last night (in a theatre!) and found it stunning. Reminded me a lot of the general vibe of growing up in New Delhi (for the first 9 years of my life) particularly in its ability to depict the casualness with which society, danger/tragedy and life intertwine at any given moment. Although our family is not even remotely like the family depicted here, we did have maids and me and my brother did spend a fair bit of time with some of them growing up, and everything that is shown here in terms of how they ‘fit in’ with the family but don’t and how they are treated by society and the resilience they display is on point (specific cultural differences notwithstanding).

And the technique is magnificent, this is absolutely not showiness for the sake of it. I agree with Lubezki that the way this is shot feels like the camera is Cuaron’s memory/consciousness as observer. The sound design is also so layered and meticulous, particularly in the sonic texture of any given moment. I think mfunk said earlier that in his theatrical experience, it came across as too bombastic but I did not find that yesterday at all. It was perfect and subtle but very immersive.

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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#95 Post by senseabove » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:52 pm

So this is the review that people are tweeting about today: https://believermag.com/logger/the-spoils-of-love/

Which may be back-filling the backlash, since it only came out today, but it makes the arguments about Cuaron's (and the film's supporters') blindness to his own privilege. I don't buy it, though... For one, the author undermines his point by misreading several key scenes, such as casting
SpoilerShow
the beach scene
as exculpatory and unifying, when it felt to me like anything but; after all, it makes a point of the mother telling Cleo to watch the kids at the beginning, and the emotional climax felt like Cleo revealing her own conflicted emotions about
SpoilerShow
not wanting her own child yet nearly drowning herself to save the kids, not some sort of pure unification through trauma with the family. The very fact that nearly everyone in that scene is dealing with a different trauma, or a different degree of it, is what makes it successful.
For another, the author takes a quote from the real-life Cleo, Liboria Rodriguez, interviewed in a Variety profile on Cuaron, out of context to make his argument that Cuaron stole her story, making her sound bitter about it, which the rest of the Variety article makes clear is not the case—she's photographed with Cuaron for the piece and the article talks about her visiting the set, during which Cuaron asked her opinion on a scene and offered to do it differently if she would like him to (she didn't). Which isn't to say there aren't dynamics at play there, or that Cuaron's privilege isn't a factor in the movie, but I don't think he's trying to exculpate himself, the family represented in the movie, or the movie itself. Maybe I'm just being too generous, though.

Sociopolitical criticisms aside, I liked Roma a lot, and I thought the sound design was fantastic, too. I don't think I'd call it a masterpiece, but it's the rare contemporary movie I fully intend to see in theaters again before it leaves. I would be delighted to see more intimate, small-scale stories get a deluxe technical treatment like this, and honestly this movie made me feel like immersive sound in an Atmos-capable theater would, personally, be a bigger draw than something like IMAX, or 70mm, even. The theater I saw it in had a 7.1 system, and the only thing I found distracting was that it was clearly designed for something with more than 7 sources of sound; the mixdown felt apparent, to me.

Has anyone here seen it in an Atmos-equipped theater?

nitin
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#96 Post by nitin » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:22 pm

Totally agree re your 2nd spoilered para, that was my read of that scene too.

Pretty sure the theatre last night was Atmos equipped, but if it wasn’t, it sure fooled me.

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Brian C
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#97 Post by Brian C » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:01 pm

If you saw it in an Atmos auditorium, you’d almost certainly know for sure, since you’d likely have been subjected to a teeth-rattling Atmos trailer beforehand.

Anyway, here in Chicago, the Music Box will be showing a 70mm print next month, January 9-13.

nitin
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#98 Post by nitin » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:46 am

Brian I just made it into the session on time so missed any previews. As I said, if it wasn’t a true Atmos theatre, it sure fooled me.

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tehthomas
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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#99 Post by tehthomas » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:04 pm

Brian, thanks for the tip on the 70mm at the Music Box. That sounds like a such a glorious experience in their grand screening room.
Watching this on on Netflix, I kept saying to myself how wonderful this would look on a big screen. I sort of agree that at times "Roma" is maybe boring and disengaging from a script standpoint -- but then
SpoilerShow
you're hit with something to stirring as the riot and the stillborn delivery, just a huge 1-2 gut punch that leaves you stirring, and then to get a TKO with that beach scene
..

This is slow cinema that builds, the running gag about the wide Ford Galaxy, the bookshelves. Aside from the glorious B&W photography, the set designs and locales are even more mesmerizing and where "Roma" does feel most like it's transporting you to another place unlike another film has done in recent memory.

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Re: Roma (Alfonso Cuarón, 2018)

#100 Post by Magic Hate Ball » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:05 pm

Saw this at TIFF last night with the big Dolby Atmos setup, which was very neat and a little bit distracting. It doesn't entirely work when the scale is off, which was funny in some places, like the scene where they're talking while watching TV, and the sound mix made it seem like they were sitting sixty feet away. But the overall effect of immersion into that very specific Mexico City was astounding and it was used really well during the more cacaphonous scenes, which were overwhelming. At the end, the entire audience sat through the entire credits like a kind of group listening activity.

I liked that the film itself was like Three Lives meets Les Miserables, and that it was both a film about small, observational details and a mammoth allegory about the human spirit. It's the first (new) film I've seen in a while that felt properly epic, like I'd read an entire dense novel in one sitting after coming out of it. Aparicio is amazing and deserves all the accolades that are coming towards her. The only bit that really felt like a misstep to me was the guy singing at the fire.

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