Zodiac (David Fincher, 2007)

[DeprongMori]

Hmmm. Do we know where Mark Zuckerberg was from 1968-1972/74? ;^)

[willoneill]

Hmmm. Do we know where Mark Zuckerberg was from 1968-1972/74? ;^)

His father's ball sack. Good luck tracking down an alibi, though.

[flyonthewall2983]

Not sure what was more elusive, Zodiac or anything remotely scary in Alien³

[mfunk9786]

Are you guys professional comedians? Zinger after zinger in this thread

[flyonthewall2983]

Toschi's disgust at the Dirty Harry screening is palpable (as is Graysmith sort of looking away during the later scene on the bus). Likewise the restraint shown when the guy comes up to him later and talks about how the case was solved for him. The heroism of detective work as portrayed by Ruffalo and Anthony Edwards is that while chasing so many false leads they never resort to jumping on school buses, manage to have families and not let all of those details drive them up the wall like it almost does to Robert Graysmith. The whole "shoot first, ask questions later" MO of movie (and several TV) cops is satisfying to those who seek it out (and I'm certainly no different in that regard) but it does ring hollow more and more now, especially with all these needless deaths/rapes/injuries at the hands of these awful men who we seem to continually hand out badges to.

[MongooseCmr]

The whole "shoot first, ask questions later" MO of movie (and several TV) cops is satisfying to those who seek it out (and I'm certainly no different in that regard) but it does ring hollow more and more now, especially with all these needless deaths/rapes/injuries at the hands of these awful men who we seem to continually hand out badges to.

Offtopic maybe, but I came to the same realization watching Sicario recently, particularly the scene where Del Toro and Broslin physically press a man for information in their car. The guy is obviously guilty and a scumbag, but while it is satisfying to see him squirm all the recent instances of police brutality and abuse of power in the media make me feel guilty for supporting this kind of behavior in any form

I don't recall too much "shoot first" behavior in Zodiac though.

[flyonthewall2983]

The film makes a point that there's none of that during the screening though. When someone comes up to Toschi later and jokingly tells him that Eastwood solved his case, the disgust on his part is even more transparent in his response about due process.

I was more or less referring to films like Dirty Harry and what it later inspired. That scene in Sicario is an interesting example in that I don't think the film sets up Del Toro or Brolin's characters as anything but mysterious and dangerous, but there is a tiny bit of backwards-heroism in watching that scene. I came away from it more thinking how far down the rabbit hole they've gone.

In watching Zodiac again I actually made a small connection between it and The Hateful Eight.

more for Hateful EightShow

The Kathleen Johns scene and the supposed fate of Dern's son. It's more on what Fincher and Tarantino did, playing with the audiences' psyche in showing something which may or may not be true, but pushes the story along. I also believe it extends to the Lincoln letter too.

[Polybius]

Did this film completely alter anyone else's comfort level with Donovan's "Hurdy Gurdy Man"? I was always a little creeped out by it, but post-Zodiac, it gives me chills to the bone whenever I listen to it. I probably appreciate the song more than ever, but whew.

I was thinking I might be the only person who felt that way.

I've never been a Donovan fan, but Zodiac (and for that matter GoodFellas) made me take notice of their respective songs. "Hurdy Gurdy Man" definitely creeps me out now.

Personally, I get a wholly different feeling from the use of Atlantis as the soundtrack for the Billy Batts beatdown. I think Scorsese was using that as an ironic, grimly comic counterpoint to what was happening.

The use of Duran Duran's similarly ephemeral Ordinary World as background for Morty's revenge in the diner in Layer Cake also comes to mind.

[Manny Karp]

Did this film completely alter anyone else's comfort level with Donovan's "Hurdy Gurdy Man"? I was always a little creeped out by it, but post-Zodiac, it gives me chills to the bone whenever I listen to it. I probably appreciate the song more than ever, but whew.

I was thinking I might be the only person who felt that way.

I've never been a Donovan fan, but Zodiac (and for that matter GoodFellas) made me take notice of their respective songs. "Hurdy Gurdy Man" definitely creeps me out now.

Personally, I get a wholly different feeling from the use of Atlantis as the soundtrack for the Billy Batts beatdown. I think Scorsese was using that as an ironic, grimly comic counterpoint to what was happening.

The use of Duran Duran's similarly ephemeral Ordinary World as background for Morty's revenge in the diner in Layer Cake also comes to mind.

I was watching L.I.E. (2001) on Netflix instant, and at around the 17-minute mark Donovan's "Hurdy Gurdy Man" comes on the soundtrack, during which there was a tracking shot from inside a car... both of which appeared similarly (though not exactly) in the later Zodiac. As well, both films feature Brian Cox. I wonder what's going on here, it's weird.

[mfunk9786]

I like what you brought to that post.

[Andre Jurieu]

The film makes a point that there's none of that during the screening though. When someone comes up to Toschi later and jokingly tells him that Eastwood solved his case, the disgust on his part is even more transparent in his response about due process.

This is kind of a tangent, but one of the film's strengths is that I find that Fincher/Vanderbilt have a more nuanced concept of investigation and the ability to sort through information to determine reality. The lobby scene after the Dirty Harry screening is the first time that Graysmith has enough courage to introduce himself to Toschi, and i always thought it was fitting that their initial meeting takes place while the masses file out after watching a piece of fiction that warps real events to essentially create a generally accepted public opinion of an actual series of crimes. Toschi's distaste and frustration with how public perception has been perverted was likely just as important for Vanderbilt/Fincher to convey as Graysmith's resolve and confidence that further investigation would prove productive and reveal the underlying truth.

It also sets up a great bookend scene when Graysmith reviews his investigation with Toschi at the late-night diner towards the end of the film. With both characters having now been weathered and somewhat beaten down by the weight of the crimes, we have them exhibit just how much effort they've expended on the investigation and the sheer depth of the information they were required to process without much help from technology. Graysmith's line that "Just because you can't prove it doesn't mean it isn't true" is quickly countered by Toschi's "Easy, Dirty Harry" caution, but immediately followed up by his guidance and blessing for Robert to go ahead with his plans to write the book. That last scene, with its reference to how any media can twist and garble public perception, but can also unravel and connect events that have been discarded or deserted by our judicial institutions, always struck me as a mature way of conveying to an audience the concept that "truth" is not so much a colour scheme of black, white, and grey, but kind of something that could be more tangible if it were not continually obscured/buried by the unbelievable noise and disconnection of modern life.

[flyonthewall2983]

And I think it's that twisting and garbling of the truth that obscures so much is what is most relevant to what's going on today. I've not seen the Robert Durst thing for HBO or Making a Murderer yet, and with at least the latter I have some skepticism about how much I can get into it if there's all this contrary evidence coming to light.

[mfunk9786]

Not sure where this idea that if someone is actually guilty of a crime, incredible abuses and crimes by law enforcement in the pursuit of a conviction become moot. But it's unfortunate. Even if the subject of Making a Murderer confessed tomorrow, the documentary has plenty of value.

[TMDaines]

And I think it's that twisting and garbling of the truth that obscures so much is what is most relevant to what's going on today. I've not seen the Robert Durst thing for HBO or Making a Murderer yet, and with at least the latter I have some skepticism about how much I can get into it if there's all this contrary evidence coming to light.

In fairness, I think there's ample evidence for both the defence and the prosecution that was excluded from the documentary due to time restraints. I've done quite a bit of reading since binge-watching the series - and me and my wife generally never binge-watch anything - and I think the series was fairly balanced. I still feel roughly the same as I did immediately after watching it. While Steven Avery could have killed Teresa Halbach, the investigation was so heavily biased from the outset and individuals involved likely framed him for the killing regardless. Due to the complete failure to conduct a proper, just, wide-ranging investigation at the time, we'll likely never know whether there were/are others suspects with a greater body of evidence against them. How juries could come to a decision of guilty beyond reasonable doubt in both his and his nephew's case strikes me as terrifying.

[captveg]

His nephew's case is even worse. Anyone with a conscious can recognize the complete psychological manipulation employed by the detectives in their interview with him. It's practically a thesis on how to elicit a false confession.

And I'll end my tangent there.

It still stuns the hell out of me that the other Zodiac ciphers have yet to be decoded. One would think the computer power we have now would have resolved it within the last few years.

[flyonthewall2983]

More than ever now I'm curious about the actual case, and Graysmith's books about it.

I was reading about it on Wikipedia last night, and there was an anonymous letter complaining about Badlands being "murder-glorification" that had several similarities to the earlier Z letters.

[oh yeah]

More than ever now I'm curious about the actual case, and Graysmith's books about it.

I was reading about it on Wikipedia last night, and there was an anonymous letter complaining about Badlands being "murder-glorification" that had several similarities to the earlier Z letters.

I'm not a fan of Graysmith's theorizing, though he does provide a decent (if often flawed) foundation of the basic facts. Once you have those down (or even if you don't), I'd highly recommend checking out John Robert Jordan's Hunter Among the Stars, the best analysis I've read of the Zodiac killer. There's tons of wacko/conspiracy theory-esque bullshit about this case out there, but Jordan's book actually manages to focus a lot on the whole astrological and mythological element of the Zodiac without sounding like a crank -- i.e. he posits Z's crimes had a reason beyond just mere random "blitz attacks." It's eloquent, exhaustive, and extremely fascinating, if sometimes a bit rambling and digressive. There are some connections made in there which I haven't even seen touched on anywhere else.

Basically I just don't buy the idea promoted by Graysmith that Arthur Lee Allen was Zodiac, and I also think that it's silly to dismiss out of hand the possibility that Zodiac was actually some kind of twisted "genius" (for lack of a better word) with complex motivations behind his crimes. That's why I thought Jordan's book was so very interesting, though I do credit Graysmith for the work he did. If you want to get into REALLY batty territory, though, just read up on "amateur sleuth" Gareth Penn and all the harm he caused in pointing fingers at an innocent Berkeley professor (hilariously, now Penn himself is commonly accused of being Z by many people...)