DVDBeaver

Discuss internationally-released DVDs and Blu-rays or other international DVD and Blu-ray-related topics.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Big Ben
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
Location: Great Falls, Montana

Re: DVDBeaver

#576 Post by Big Ben » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:20 pm

bearcuborg wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:14 pm
You needed to check that twitter account? Really?
There's a weird thing about Twitter names and irony, particularly among left leaning users. I realize how absolutely insane that may sound but I've seen more than one handle use particularly derogatory names for gay people in it's name and turn out to be very much Pro-LGBT. I realize there's a concept of reclamation involved with certain words but occasionally you'll see one that makes your head spin. I wish to stress that this obviously doesn't apply all the time to every account but on the hellscape that is Twitter sometimes you very much DO need to check.

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: DVDBeaver

#577 Post by domino harvey » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:41 pm

I appreciate Cremildo’s post. This kind of thing is easier to defend when it’s treated in the abstract, but the reality of the account leaves no doubt to its intent

User avatar
Cremildo
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:19 pm
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: DVDBeaver

#578 Post by Cremildo » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:41 pm

bearcuborg wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:14 pm
You needed to check that twitter account? Really?
Yeah, I was unfamiliar with it, so I decided to check it. Sorry not sorry for not taking what some of you guys write as gospel.

User avatar
jindianajonz
Jindiana Jonz Abrams
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:11 pm

Re: DVDBeaver

#579 Post by jindianajonz » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:30 pm

I know a number of conservatives who fancy themselves pro-white without being anti-minority. They claim to celebrate white western culture in a way that doesn't disparage others, and pretty much just want a equivalent to black history month for themselves. I'm not saying there isn't any subconscious racism to their beliefs, nor do I endorse their views, but pro-white stances don't always necessitate pitchforks and explicit hate.

User avatar
Drucker
Your Future our Drucker
Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 9:37 am

Re: DVDBeaver

#580 Post by Drucker » Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:40 pm

jindianajonz wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:30 pm
I know a number of conservatives who fancy themselves pro-white without being anti-minority. They claim to celebrate white western culture in a way that doesn't disparage others, and pretty much just want a equivalent to black history month for themselves. I'm not saying there isn't any subconscious racism to their beliefs, nor do I endorse their views, but pro-white stances don't always necessitate pitchforks and explicit hate.
Counterpoint: whiteness is invented, evolving, and only exists in contrast to undesirables. It is inherently white supremacist.

User avatar
furbicide
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:52 am

Re: DVDBeaver

#581 Post by furbicide » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:07 am

I think we can get a little reductive with this stuff – like, I think we all understand on an intuitive level that identification is not solely a response to oppression (even if oppression is so often a powerful motivator for, say, in-group allegiance and solidarity), but rather something that emerges at least partially from deeper human drives. Feeling pride in gayness or blackness or femaleness is not just an act of resistance, and those feelings would surely not just suddenly disintegrate in a post-racist/sexist/homophobic world. What they’re really about at their core is how we construct our sense of self.

I’m not saying there aren’t fundamental differences between “pride” in dominant identity and pride in subjugated identity, and there’s absolutely no question that “white pride” serves little other function than to racialise outgroups. But where I think relatively mainstream conservatives can get dragged into some “white pride” discourse is through a defensive reaction to white guilt. That is to say, feeling a sense of specialness about possessing a hegemonic ethnicity is undeniably sinister, but pushing back against an (imaginary or otherwise) obligation to feel ashamed about that ethnicity is somewhat less psychologically abnormal, and probably carries a much broader appeal than many of us would like to admit.

All of this is a roundabout way of saying that there’s some truth to what jindianajonz says, and that we shouldn’t automatically assume that someone who momentarily felt a sense of affinity with a sentiment from a “pro-white” Twitter page is a virulent racist. That may seem to still be way too generous to Tooze given the actual virulent racism of the account in question and the possibility that his politics actually are that far-right, but I somehow want to get through that this isn’t the desperate attempt to defend the indefensible that some posters are characterising it as – it’s about the general importance of not assuming the worst of our fellow human beings, and about understanding that a reluctance to throw someone in the trash on the basis of inconclusive evidence is not necessarily the same thing as apologism or enabling.

User avatar
DarkImbecile
LightGenius
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: DVDBeaver

#582 Post by DarkImbecile » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:11 am

furbicide wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:07 am
... we shouldn’t automatically assume that someone who momentarily felt a sense of affinity with a sentiment from a “pro-white” Twitter page is a virulent racist...

...I somehow want to get through that this isn’t the desperate attempt to defend the indefensible that some posters are characterising it as...

...a reluctance to throw someone in the trash on the basis of inconclusive evidence is not necessarily the same thing as apologism or enabling.
Who specifically here do you feel is doing these things?

User avatar
DeprongMori
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:59 am
Location: San Francisco

Re: DVDBeaver

#583 Post by DeprongMori » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:23 pm

I figured out that Gary was something of a libertarian-leaning Ayn Rand acolyte some years ago, but as that didn’t seem to creep into his professional work, I paid it no mind and considered it none of my business

But now, despite Gary deleting the ProWhitesUnite follow, even his rest of his current constellation of other follows indicate a comfort level with White Nationalist rhetoric that troubles me. Especially in the present environment.

He still provides a valuable professional service which I use often and would like to continue to reward monetarily. Even though I haven’t found this rhetoric promoted in his reviews, I have deep qualms about supporting supporters of White Nationalism. I may draw the line at continuing to use his “Amazon associate” link for discs I buy based on his reviews, but I certainly won’t provide Patreon contributions at this point. In any case, I’ll continue to monitor the situation.

I really wish this wasn’t our present situation.

User avatar
furbicide
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:52 am

Re: DVDBeaver

#584 Post by furbicide » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:51 pm

DarkImbecile wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:11 am
furbicide wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:07 am
... we shouldn’t automatically assume that someone who momentarily felt a sense of affinity with a sentiment from a “pro-white” Twitter page is a virulent racist...

...I somehow want to get through that this isn’t the desperate attempt to defend the indefensible that some posters are characterising it as...

...a reluctance to throw someone in the trash on the basis of inconclusive evidence is not necessarily the same thing as apologism or enabling.
Who specifically here do you feel is doing these things?
Well, those are three different things, but it seems that 1) is the general point of contention, i.e. whether Tooze is an undesirable on account of what this Twitter follow indicates about his politics and him as a person generally, or whether it is defensible to continue to support his business (which, let’s remember, is more or less faultless apart from its association with him – thus, again, his character is what’s implicitly under discussion by all posters);

2) There have been comments from Domino, Bearcuborg and others saying that defences of Tooze in this thread are desperate or “cringeworthy”, hence my response to those characterisations; and

3) I can’t speak for anyone else, but that’s simply a blunt description of my own angle here: I don’t want Tooze to be metaphorically thrown in the trash (an expression meaning to be condemned, ostracised or treated as irredeemable) over this, because, among other reasons, he keeps his personal politics separate from his work, and also because I believe people deserve some benefit of the doubt.

Are you suggesting that’s a straw man? Because I feel pretty confident that that is indeed what’s at stake here, whether everyone here realises it or not.

User avatar
Magic Hate Ball
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:15 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: DVDBeaver

#585 Post by Magic Hate Ball » Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:33 am

I don't think it's particularly crazy to say that I do not wish to patronize a service run by someone like that. These are people causing harm to many of my friends and relatives, not to mention myself. I'm not sure what suggesting that his business is "faultless apart from its association with him" is meant to achieve - if I found out my favorite pizza shop owner was a subscriber to Trump Hat Magazine and The White Power Gazette I'd immediately find somewhere else to eat pizza.

JabbaTheSlut
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:37 am
Location: Down there

Re: DVDBeaver

#586 Post by JabbaTheSlut » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:22 pm

Can’t these guys only be edge-enhancement-nazis?!

JabbaTheSlut
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:37 am
Location: Down there

Re: DVDBeaver

#587 Post by JabbaTheSlut » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:27 pm

But seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.

User avatar
DarkImbecile
LightGenius
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: DVDBeaver

#588 Post by DarkImbecile » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:39 pm

furbicide wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:51 pm
DarkImbecile wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:11 am
furbicide wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:07 am
... we shouldn’t automatically assume that someone who momentarily felt a sense of affinity with a sentiment from a “pro-white” Twitter page is a virulent racist...

...I somehow want to get through that this isn’t the desperate attempt to defend the indefensible that some posters are characterising it as...

...a reluctance to throw someone in the trash on the basis of inconclusive evidence is not necessarily the same thing as apologism or enabling.
Who specifically here do you feel is doing these things?
Well, those are three different things, but it seems that 1) is the general point of contention, i.e. whether Tooze is an undesirable on account of what this Twitter follow indicates about his politics and him as a person generally, or whether it is defensible to continue to support his business (which, let’s remember, is more or less faultless apart from its association with him – thus, again, his character is what’s implicitly under discussion by all posters);

2) There have been comments from Domino, Bearcuborg and others saying that defences of Tooze in this thread are desperate or “cringeworthy”, hence my response to those characterisations; and

3) I can’t speak for anyone else, but that’s simply a blunt description of my own angle here: I don’t want Tooze to be metaphorically thrown in the trash (an expression meaning to be condemned, ostracised or treated as irredeemable) over this, because, among other reasons, he keeps his personal politics separate from his work, and also because I believe people deserve some benefit of the doubt.

Are you suggesting that’s a straw man? Because I feel pretty confident that that is indeed what’s at stake here, whether everyone here realises it or not.
I don't want to speak for anyone else's opinion on this issue, but to me the quotes I listed do seem like hyperbolic oversimplifications of what people have actually said here. Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone insisted that Tooze is without a doubt a virulent racist, or that he's indefensible, or that anyone not willing to "throw someone in the trash" is an enabler or apologist. Most of the users with the harshest responses to that account and the implications of following it nevertheless acknowledged that they'd continue to patronize the man's site, and pretty much everyone has offered nuanced responses regardless of where they land on how to engage (or not) with Tooze going forward, so your admonition that people need slow down and rationally consider this issue seems to be misplaced.

User avatar
swo17
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: DVDBeaver

#589 Post by swo17 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:41 pm

JabbaTheSlut wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:27 pm
But seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.
Or I dunno, maybe the scorched earth approach only serves to further isolate and motivate those espousing dangerous extremist positions? It's not like cutting off someone's livelihood makes them go away, or like white nationalism needs funding to thrive.

JabbaTheSlut
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:37 am
Location: Down there

Re: DVDBeaver

#590 Post by JabbaTheSlut » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:24 pm

swo17 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:41 pm
JabbaTheSlut wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:27 pm
But seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.
Or I dunno, maybe the scorched earth approach only serves to further isolate and motivate those espousing dangerous extremist positions? It's not like cutting off someone's livelihood makes them go away, or like white nationalism needs funding to thrive.
I doubt the white nationalist become nice guys by people tolerating them. Their ideology is shit. Better spray them dead before they kill the garden.

User avatar
DarkImbecile
LightGenius
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: DVDBeaver

#591 Post by DarkImbecile » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 pm

The timing of my citation of measured responses in this thread was impeccable.

JabbaTheSlut
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:37 am
Location: Down there

Re: DVDBeaver

#592 Post by JabbaTheSlut » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:32 pm

DarkImbecile wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:27 pm
The timing of my citation of measured responses in this thread was impeccable.
I admire your strength to keep up a humanistic attitude towards white nationalists, but c’mon, nazis, they spit on tolerance and humanity.

User avatar
swo17
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: DVDBeaver

#593 Post by swo17 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:46 pm

And what's wrong with white nationalists--that they consider some people to be undeserving of dignity and think the world would be better off without them?

User avatar
DarkImbecile
LightGenius
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:24 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Re: DVDBeaver

#594 Post by DarkImbecile » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:50 pm

... and that’s enough of this thread for me.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: DVDBeaver

#595 Post by knives » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:08 pm

JabbaTheSlut wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:24 pm
swo17 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:41 pm
JabbaTheSlut wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:27 pm
But seriously speaking. Have been following Beaver and using their Amazon links, but not anymore. The rise of the far right is a global problem and bypassing these characters as just having “odd hobbies” is giving them space they don’t deserve and really can’t have in a democratic society. Fuck Tooze.
Or I dunno, maybe the scorched earth approach only serves to further isolate and motivate those espousing dangerous extremist positions? It's not like cutting off someone's livelihood makes them go away, or like white nationalism needs funding to thrive.
I doubt the white nationalist become nice guys by people tolerating them. Their ideology is shit. Better spray them dead before they kill the garden.
Actually, in the few studies on the topic it has been found that interaction with explicit teaching of tolerance (e.g. gays aren't trying to get married through your church) has been found to be the most useful tool in dealing with white supremacists. Most come from broken homes and are looking for a sense of community and belonging which must groups do provide.

JabbaTheSlut
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:37 am
Location: Down there

Re: DVDBeaver

#596 Post by JabbaTheSlut » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:13 pm

knives wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:08 pm
JabbaTheSlut wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:24 pm
swo17 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:41 pm

Or I dunno, maybe the scorched earth approach only serves to further isolate and motivate those espousing dangerous extremist positions? It's not like cutting off someone's livelihood makes them go away, or like white nationalism needs funding to thrive.
I doubt the white nationalist become nice guys by people tolerating them. Their ideology is shit. Better spray them dead before they kill the garden.
Actually, in the few studies on the topic it has been found that interaction with explicit teaching of tolerance (e.g. gays aren't trying to get married through your church) has been found to be the most useful tool in dealing with white supremacists. Most come from broken homes and are looking for a sense of community and belonging which must groups do provide.
Could be great, but to organise the whole nazi family in this kind of treatment is pretty hard. Society has to teach them that their violent, hate filled world view is not accepted. Of course these white supremacist’s racist sentiments spur out of unemployment, shortcomings of social care etc. The society is ill, the nazis are a symptom, not the reason.

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: DVDBeaver

#597 Post by domino harvey » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:17 pm

CliffsNotes summary of this thread

Image

User avatar
fdm
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:25 pm

Re: DVDBeaver

#598 Post by fdm » Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:29 pm

My summary of this thread: good grief :roll: .

Zot!
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:09 am

Re: DVDBeaver

#599 Post by Zot! » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:08 pm

I’m not interested in participating in the discourse any longer, as I’m not sure if I understand how the world works anymore. However, what do we make of the fact that DVD Beaver has promoted the works of Filmmakers of all races for years? You’d have to be a hell of a masochist to compare the two versions of 1000 hours of Pioneers of African American Cinema, if you held a bigoted viewpoint and to top it off give it your “highest recommendation”. Take a look, its hardly an isolated example.

User avatar
FrauBlucher
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:28 pm
Location: Greenwich Village

Re: DVDBeaver

#600 Post by FrauBlucher » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:10 pm

Clearly this thread mirrors the polarization of society. For those that will give Gary the benefit of the doubt that he is not a nazi will continue to visit his site (which I fall under) and the others who think he is evil and complicit will want him flogged and have his cinema privileges taken away. Nothing will be settled, but the question that remains is if someone posts his review will a mod delete it from the boards?

Post Reply