Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

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therewillbeblus
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Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#51 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:48 pm

Mr Sausage wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:35 pm
Episode 4Show
I don’t know, I still find this show kind of humorous. Like the guy running away in panic from some thing that's chasing him, and when the reveal comes, it's this sweet little girl with her stuffed animal. It’s creepy, but it has comic timing, too. Just the whole reveal that people are dying because of an innocent children's game is blackly funny.
Episode 4Show
Agreed, though I think the dark humor I got from it was sourced more in the reveal insinuating a ‘Hell is Other People’ intrusion on these grown men’s “safe space” (as I mentioned already), and how sensitive-bordering-on-infantile we can become to stimuli that comes suddenly and unexpectedly from the sample of possibilities we prime ourselves for in a given situation. It’s relatable and horrifying and honest about human behavior in a slightly exaggerated way (here the players in this zone are responding like psychological parts do as fight/flight reactions to unprompted triggers). But I also think No Exit is funny, so I guess existential humor is my thing.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#52 Post by vsski » Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:18 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:51 pm
episode 3Show

I wonder about Lain's father's reaction to the new computer part she got. Is it that he didn't understand it so he didn't want to talk about it? Or was it the reverse? He did know what it was and, thus, wanted to stay out of what she was going to do.
vsski -- I am quite sure that the sparse and unusual visual style was NOT due to budget constraints. This was not intended to look like other TV anime of the era. Rather it drew from more experimental animation styles. It is intended to create unease (and other emotional reactions). It is precisely because this did NOT look like other contemporary TV anime that I was interested in watching this.
SpoilerShow
Michael - my interpretation was that the father didn't want to get involved but knew exactly what was going on - at least looking at his face and body reaction I had no doubt that this is what was happening. In general while the father seems to remain fairly uninvolved I don't see him as a benign or clueless figure, but maybe I will be proven wrong as the series continues
You clearly would know better than I as to whether the animation style is intentional, but if it isn't for budget reasons, then at least for me there some episodes I'd wish the animation was more fleshed out and life like, although I clearly see how at other times, it works beautifully.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#53 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:46 am

vsski -- I affirmatively disliked (and mostly still dislike) the visual style of most of the anime made around the time of Lain. I feel the style and content of Lain are pretty much inseparable. ;-)

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#54 Post by vsski » Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:57 pm

Michael - not trying to disagree with you and I’m glad that you really like it. It’s not that I totally dislike it, but do admit that at times I struggle with it and it has taken me out of the story and I had to rewind and watch again. But as I said I have no comparison, either from the time the series was made, or other times, so I just go with the flow and react to what I see, which frankly at this stage in the series keeps getting more confusing / dense / layered (not sure which term to chose):
Episode 6Show
- Turns out the dark data center like room is Lain’s bedroom and it really feels like a dungeon now with not only computers and monitors but tubes with ominous liquids all over the place and liquid on the floor (feels like a safety nightmare)
- The father enters her room and is shocked at what he sees making me now less sure if he is really clueless as to what is going on or never expected Lain to take things this far
- A completely new player to the story is introduced (as if things weren’t confusing enough already) in the form of a scientist who once devised a game that got children killed called KIDS and that has now been resurrected on the Wired with presumably the same results
- It appears Lain is talking with an imagine of the professor in the Wired while his real life body is dying in the real world and at the end when his real body dies the image is disintegrating and disappearing
- And finally the black car with the two men dressed in black with laser guided glasses is back and getting confronted by Lain thinking they are the so called Knights only to hear from them while an explosion is taking place in her bedroom that the Knights are behind it all
- Frankly the story is now getting so dense with so many players and subplots that it becomes not only challenging to follow, but also to know in which dimensions the players are in, the real world, the Wired or in their own head / imagination
- At this stage I feel I have to let this play out for a while before really trying to make sense of it all as the possibility of what is being pursued are endless from the role of technology, religion / spirituality and their impact on people to alternate universes in which the same persons exist but their personalities are completely different
- The animation for me still takes getting used to and I oscillate from finding it very effective to support the story and atmosphere to wishing characters and backgrounds would be more real world like at least for those scenes that do ply in the real world; but in some ways the animation itself adds to the confusion at times in which dimension the situation on screen takes place

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#55 Post by feihong » Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:52 pm

When a show re-uses a lot of clips it's because the production team is feeling the budgetary constraints and/or time constraints of the production process. This happens even on high-budget anime, and a lot of productions consciously build opportunities to re-use footage into their productions (i.e., robot and magical girl transformation sequences, or the ascent to the dueling arena in Utena, for some examples), as a way of combatting high-workloads, burnout, and missed deadlines. The animators on Lain very obviously feel this squeeze, because the same clips keep getting re-used constantly throughout the show, without variation to them (meaning that the animators only drew this much of the shot, and went no further, giving the editor no leader to play around with––this isn't uncommon in animation in general, but if you want to re-use a clip, it's sometimes considered worthwhile to extend it, so that a second viewing of the clip offers more story or character insight, and the makers of Lain haven't done that). Episode 11 is the most obvious example of re-using scenes from previous episodes and editing them to try and make a new meaning out of them; but nearly every episode features a lot of re-used shots.

Besides that, though, when you see these static shots, with a slow zoom in lieu of character movement, it's also pretty obvious the animators are straining their resources to get things done. There's animation details they could add here––they could animate hair, they could animate the character breathing in a loop, they could animate an air conditioner fan blowing on the various hanging wires in Lain's room, or just animate pulsing lights in the room, for examples. Animators look for these kind of details and try to incorporate them into their work––unless they don't have the time/money to make them happen––in which case a camera movement might be substituted for the figure movement it would take more time and resources to draw.

I wouldn't argue that the flat nature of the animation isn't part of the aesthetic of Serial Experiments Lain, and that aesthetic may have suggested the removal of these traditional animation details; but I think it's far more likely that this aesthetic was developed after the production team found themselves staring down the barrel of a very small budget, rather than beforehand. It is unusual for the time that Lain only runs a single season––most adult-oriented anime of that time period got a 2-season order before production commenced on the first season––but Lain did not. Lain was also commissioned as a multi-media production, with comic book, novel and video-game tie-ins intended (I believe one manga doujinshi and one generally hated video game which never made it to an English-language adaptation are the only results of this endeavor), so the whole funding structure of the anime might have been different from the usual––and that never seems to mean a bigger budget for the animators, only a smaller one.

But I do think it's relevant to muse on the idea: does the cheapness take you out of Serial Experiments Lain?

For me it does. The scenes and even just the basic drawing compositions have so little life in them, it's hard to look at the characters as human figures to invest much intellect or emotion within; if there is an equivalent of "persistence of vision" that applies to the way we assemble details of character and story in our heads to create the semblance of a life-like structure, then Lain does not meet the threshold of that persistent lag. And the aesthetic that is built around this scaled-back approach to the art is much less involving for me than in the better anime I've seen––there's a deliberate inscrutability to the narrative approach for most of the episodes, a waiting for plot and character elements to connect together episodes down the road, with only silence and repetition in between these moments and their meeting with meaning, sometimes hours later in the show. I'd compare this to Twin Peaks: The Return, which offers up a similar structural proposition. What makes that show demanding of my attention for every second, whereas I found Lain hard to pay attention to at all? To me there's an issue of energy at play here; Twin Peaks: The Return offers you the quivering energy of real human beings on camera––frozen in space, perhaps, barely able to enunciate words in the case of Dougie Jones and The Fireman––but filled with possibility. And every still shot, drawn out past the point of all patience in The Return, vibrates with the potential for something to happen. An actor might reach across the space; that big glass box might suddenly fill with inky black liquid, if you avert your gaze for a second––then what might happen? The stand-off with a pair of bloodthirsty gangsters might resolve differently than what we expect, because there might be a cake in a box someone happens to be holding, and one of these guys had a dream the previous night in which these exact events unfolded––the result of a dozen little, flat or inconsequential-seeming narrative strands laid down over hour after previous hour of the series. But the relatively frozen animation of Lain never offers that feeling of potentiality, or the joy of connecting up ideas we thought might never coalesce into meaning. The clips of animation in Lain will not alter from the last time we saw them. The figures in the composition won't suddenly start to move with intent; the show trains us to expect nothing of the kind, because nothing of the sort ever happens––Twin Peaks: The Return trains us to expect the sudden change of state in a scene, just when we least expect it. To my mind it's the difference between a riveting watch and an exasperating one.
Last edited by feihong on Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#56 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:05 pm

Well, I am now motivated to abandon all my viewing plans to revisit Twin Peaks: The Return for the fourth time

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#57 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:58 pm

episode 4Show
The most disconcerting part of this episode is the little girl with the stuffed animal.How does she get incorporated into whatever is going on? We see her in the "game" before Lain first sees her -- or so it would seem. And how does she wind up on that apartment rooftop (to be killed by the guy freaking out -- or is that NOT what happens?

Lain's room has undergone a radical change. Lots of computer related equipment there now, making it so warm Lain works on it in her chemise. Her father is paying attention, and does take what she is doing seriously. Seriously enough to warn her that the purpose of this sort of stuff is com-mu-ni-ca-tion. Advice she clearly rejects. Which I assume is going to set up further developments.
I am sure -- as Feihong suggests -- there were tight financial constraints on this project. With all due respect, I reject his assessment of its success (even if his description of "shortcuts" are accurate). I think the constraints were put to use in a way that makes the show more effective (for me, at least).

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#58 Post by feihong » Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:40 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:05 pm
Well, I am now motivated to abandon all my viewing plans to revisit Twin Peaks: The Return for the fourth time
One hardly needs a reason, really, but glad to provide the excuse. \:D/ I think the sequence over the first two episodes where the characters watch the featureless box, waiting for something to happen, is the show being very instructive about what to expect from it. For me, the instruction was really helpful.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#59 Post by Mr Sausage » Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:06 pm

Episode 5Show
This episode is all sorts of brilliant. It’s also the most obscure episode so far. It takes its structural principle from a theory of history propounded by the mask that visits Lain in a vision: history is not a linear path, but points of connection existing in space and time. Who the connector is, we don't know. Likewise, the episode is a-chronological, bouncing between moments in time as tho’ they were a continuous present linked together by some organizing principle or other. Past and present are synchronized as needed, based on connections other than temporal and causal. Lain’s sister also begins to experience reality this way, seemingly leading her to have a vision of the Wired beyond the physical world. Indeed, the mother-vision repeats to Lain a lot of of spiritual concepts common to both Platonism and Christianity, including that physical reality is but a mask or projection of heaven, a veil across the spiritual world obscuring but also revealing the fundamental truths of existence. The dad-vision posits that the concept of God has become embodied in the Wired and can influence the offline world in the form of prophecies--and that seems to be happening to Lain’s sister. The god of the Wired is influencing her to enact something. At the end of the episode she appears to split into a spiritual form and a corporeal form. Whether the corporeal form is now under the full control of the god of the Wired is hard to say. But it makes sense she would have these experiences: like Lain, the sister was living a death-in-life, anhedonic, unreactive, merely existing. Her sudden experience of the spiritual seems to shock her into emotional life, but also seems to cut her off from her former physical existence. This show seems massively dualist.

I love this kind of weird, viewer-resistant, philosophically impenetrable, obscurantist storytelling.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#60 Post by Mr Sausage » Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:25 pm

It's fun to read other's thoughts on the episode. Blus, yours was interesting, because while I was focusing on the metaphysical and structural content, you read episode 5 more as
Episode 5Show
an internal story, where Lain's psychological state is in question, and where she is herself the likely emanation of the god of the Wired (to slightly misuse a Blakean term). This tracks, since the doll does tell Lane: "You know everything already. I can't tell you what doesn't exist." That would heavily suggest she is the god of the Wired, the entity controlling and connecting the online sphere. So the visions are telling her what she already knows, but has become disconnected from (anamnesis in Platonic philosophy). As she spirals deeper into her investigations in the Wired, her doppelganger personality (I'm assuming) is beginning to affect the outside world. The identity and emotions she has repressed are coming out with too much force and are beginning to have huge real-world effects. When her sister has her vision of the Wired under the world, it comes when she tries to communicate with Lain as Lain is stricken in traffic, only for Lain to vanish in a burst of light, leaving her sister unstuck in time, saddled with portentous instructions, and finally disconnected from her body. The final lines, "So who's next?", suggests Lain plans to continue imposing prophecies on other people, controlling their behaviour.

I wonder if this is a metaphor-driven examination of a kind of selfishness, the kind where, not knowing ourselves, we accidentally thrust others about in an unacknowledged need to organize our world how we want. Perhaps Lain's powers are frightening because she has not been able to marry the disparate parts of her personality.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#61 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:02 am

episode 5Show
The sound design of this episode seemed even more amazing and eerie than the already-high average.

I had almost forgotten that the sister is as much or more the focus of this episode as Lain herself. And what is the deal with the dual versions of the sister at the end? The sister really "came to life in this episode" and appeared interested and complex -- as well as being utterly spooked. But then THIS sister evaporates when she returns home and encounters a robotic alter ego -- though Lain does see a sort of ghostly evaporating after image. One of the more disconcerting moments of the show. Big sister's encounter with one of the "Cyberia urchins" was one of the few lighter moments in her adventures.

The "floating parents" were also pretty disconcerting. At least the father sounded rather like the usual father does at times, but the mother seemed to be channeling information to Lain -- in a way that bore little similarity to her normal way of speaking to Lain. Query -- was the mother also (sort of) the doll that spoke with Lain,

Everyone seems to be getting messages about the "prophecy" but no one seems to be getting told what the prophecy is all about... Everyday Lain certainly appears to have no knowledge about the system hacking (which featured HER face) -- clearly HER alter ego was also busy that day. I find it interesting that Arisu is getting more deeply involved in trying to track what is going on -- presumably due to her concern about Lain.

I don't (despite many rewatchings) really have much clue as to the meaning of what goes on in this show -- and ove the years I've grown more and more unconcerned about this. ;-)

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#62 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:30 am

vsski wrote:From an animation aspect I’m still struggling at times with the fact that many images show a blend of movement and static that for me seems highly unnatural and my initial inclination is still to think that budgetary concerns drive some of it, but maybe I’m simply so accustomed to the Pixar / Disney style of natural character movements that it takes getting used to .
I can tell this is a bit of a hang up, and that's understandable. Lain is an extreme example, but in general, Japanese animation is not as smooth as the Disney animation you're used to, even in major, big budget anime productions (I showed Akira to a big Disney buff back in high school and he spent the whole time complaining about the smoothness). From what I can tell, Japanese animation favours detail at the expense of smoothness, while Disney tends to sacrifice detail to achieve greater smoothness. So in general, you're going to feel more jank when watching Japanese stuff. It's just a different style. Again, Lain takes it to an extreme, but the movement style is still recognizable across anime. I'd guess you'll find it more bearable in other works.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#63 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:45 am

Probably Miyazaki comes closest to Disneyesque animation technique... But despite its "shortcomings" I think I might find Lain more visually interesting.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#64 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:00 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:45 am
Probably Miyazaki comes closest to Disneyesque animation technique... But despite its "shortcomings" I think I might find Lain more visually interesting.
I'm digging Lain's visual style. The stiff movement, static shots, repetitive scenes, detail-less backgrounds, it's all working to put me on edge in a productive way. Everything feels awkward and off-kilter. It's so appropriate. I imagine it's a hell of an adjustment for your first anime, but if you're a bit more familiar with anime, you can really appreciate how far Lain's pushing the typical style into abstraction. At times it even seems expressionistic, with objects being secondary to pure arrangements of shape and colour. Pretty cool.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#65 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:10 am

Lain WAS my first anime series -- the only things I saw before this were Ghibli-related stuff. In my mind it seemed more related to Bunuel and PK Dick (among other things) than to Ghibli.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#66 Post by vsski » Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:11 am

Mr Sausage wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:30 am
I can tell this is a bit of a hang up, and that's understandable. Lain is an extreme example, but in general, Japanese animation is not as smooth as the Disney animation you're used to, even in major, big budget anime productions (I showed Akira to a big Disney buff back in high school and he spent the whole time complaining about the smoothness). From what I can tell, Japanese animation favours detail at the expense of smoothness, while Disney tends to sacrifice detail to achieve greater smoothness. So in general, you're going to feel more jank when watching Japanese stuff. It's just a different style. Again, Lain takes it to an extreme, but the movement style is still recognizable across anime. I'd guess you'll find it more bearable in other works.
Thanks for this background and yes, no doubt you are right that I’m not used to it and because of it notice it a lot and may get hung up on it. But I don’t want to leave the impression that I find Lain unwatchable, on the contrary the topics and the storyline are interesting and thought provoking.
In parallel to this I also now watched my first anime movie from the list Feihong recommended My Neighbor Totoro and I can see that the animation even there is quite different from the Disney / Pixar one, but I found it more pleasing than Lain and I certainly didn’t feel that any corners were cut due to budget constraints - although Michael is adamant that this didn’t play a reason with Lain, so I do accept that it’s a stylistic choice.

The good news is that I haven’t seen anything with anime that has turned me off and Lain certainly is much more adult oriented than I would have expected. I will definitely finish the series.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#67 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:25 am

vsski -- Lain assuredly would have had a tiny fraction of the budget that the typical Miyazaki film got. I think the style pursued took into account the resources that were available and then made every effort to make "limitations " an asset (to present its story content more "atmospherically") rather than a flaw. So, things different from Disney/Ghibli were not ad hoc "shortcuts", but deliberate strategies. I don't think this would have worked very well (if at all) with a more lavish Ghibli style.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#68 Post by therewillbeblus » Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:52 am

Mr Sausage wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:25 pm
It's fun to read other's thoughts on the episode. Blus, yours was interesting, because while I was focusing on the metaphysical and structural content, you read episode 5 more as
Episode 5Show
an internal story, where Lain's psychological state is in question, and where she is herself the likely emanation of the god of the Wired (to slightly misuse a Blakean term). This tracks, since the doll does tell Lane: "You know everything already. I can't tell you what doesn't exist." That would heavily suggest she is the god of the Wired, the entity controlling and connecting the online sphere. So the visions are telling her what she already knows, but has become disconnected from (anamnesis in Platonic philosophy). As she spirals deeper into her investigations in the Wired, her doppelganger personality (I'm assuming) is beginning to affect the outside world. The identity and emotions she has repressed are coming out with too much force and are beginning to have huge real-world effects. When her sister has her vision of the Wired under the world, it comes when she tries to communicate with Lain as Lain is stricken in traffic, only for Lain to vanish in a burst of light, leaving her sister unstuck in time, saddled with portentous instructions, and finally disconnected from her body. The final lines, "So who's next?", suggests Lain plans to continue imposing prophecies on other people, controlling their behaviour.

I wonder if this is a metaphor-driven examination of a kind of selfishness, the kind where, not knowing ourselves, we accidentally thrust others about in an unacknowledged need to organize our world how we want. Perhaps Lain's powers are frightening because she has not been able to marry the disparate parts of her personality.
I think you did a better job at explaining my own thoughts than I did, but even though your interpretation makes sense to me on a narrative level, it's really a more general symptom of how I see psychology in IFS (internal family systems) terms: We are comprised of various 'parts' (any strong thought, feeling, sensation we have can be a different part) that are neglected, reinforced, conflated, etc., and often in conflict, like children in a family system each screaming out to get their needs met and not perceiving that I, Lain, the moderator, is giving them the attention they need. Or sometimes a part that's more 'mature' (usually a cognitive part) feels like it needs to do all the work but becomes exhausted, because it doesn't trust the more reactive, neglected emotional parts, and yet it needs to work in harmony with them and develop that trust over time in order to lighten its unbearable load. So the successful work is in identifying these parts as separate from us as an identity, and accepting their existence without judgment or blending with them to become myopic in seeing the world through one part's perspective, working with them to cultivate trusting relationships, recognizing the barriers and working to traverse them so that we can become lucid to what drives us, what we are doing to ourselves and others, and quell the dysregulation that stems from that myopic blending. This is obviously only a partial abstract for this therapeutic practice/worldview, but I don't think I've been shy about applying it across my posts on this forum, so I probably don't need to even write this. Still, I believe it applies to a lot of art that explores existential and psychological themes with visual symbols or narrative patterns or vehicles in people, places, or things that can serve as signifiers of these parts of us, even if the creator isn't using that terminology. After all, IFS is basically a merger between a psychodynamic modality and Eastern spiritual practices, if we want to be broad and reductive about it. And we know that this art forum loves to engage with both of those perspectives in particular when crafting themes.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#69 Post by Mr Sausage » Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:20 pm

Episode 6Show
A bewildering amount of information is dumped in this episode, including a concept, KIDS, we've never heard of before. As best I can tell, a scientist was experimenting on the latent "parapsychological ability" in children (anywhere from mild intuition to bending coins), connecting the children so as to amplify the signal. This resulted in an accident, rendered viscerally for Lain and us, but explained somewhat cryptically. I think what happened is the children were pulled out of their physical form and rendered as psychic energy in a black cube called the KIDS, which runs an emulation that keeps the children's 'spirits' running. The scientist responsible destroyed KIDS, but the tech plans were leaked online, KIDS was reconstructed, and I guess the consciousnesses emulated inside it were reborn? Lain wonders if the Knights are the children inside KIDS. KIDS, or the Knights, or someone, has resumed the experiment, causing children in Tokyo and elsewhere to raise their hands in prayer to the sky. The combined psychic power of these praying children seems to've called forth Lain's online identity as a beatific vision in the sky, naked but sexless, like a god above creation. Whew.

I...don't know what to make of this, but it continues the themes of earlier episodes. Connection in various forms is both a good and a bad: it is powerful, but easily misdirected and misused. The big instance of course is KIDS, where connecting people psychically produces tremendous power, but causes a horrible accident. But a smaller instance is online culture, ie. how online connections can substitute for, but also supplant, healthier real-world connections. Lain's friends notice Lain is retreating into her shell, even as we see her blossoming online (showing a surprising range of affect). The show is taking a complex, nuanced view of what it means to be connected to other people.

This is also a delightfully paranoid episode. Multiple groups are at play now--KIDS, Knights, MIB--all of whom have undefined agendas and have been mistaken for each other by Lain. The MIB claim the Knights, who we earlier saw helping Lain in a light and friendly moment, conspired to blow up her computer (which has grown like an organism, seemingly expanding her room in the process). This is classic thriller territory, where friends turn out to be enemies, enemies friends, and mysterious plots multiply.

In the story's metaphysics, the dying doctor does not claim godhead for Lain. He says that, if there is a god, Lain is a blessed child. Interesting.

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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#70 Post by Mr Sausage » Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:18 am

Episode 7Show
The series is getting more plot heavy as it enters the middle stretch. There's less to ponder conceptually (the concepts are well introduced by now) and more plot mysteries. For instance, the esoteric symbol of the compass atop a pyramid, what does that signify? The Knights' full name is revealed as the Knights of the Eastern Calculus. East = pyramid; calculus = compass? No idea. The overarching plot device seems to be a breakdown in the boundaries between the world and the Wired, between the real and the spiritual. the MIB are a group dedicated to stopping it, and who view the Lain of the Wired as a danger.

Meanwhile, Arisu is concerned for Lain, says she's "slipping again" (slippage is a theme of the show). She gives Lain I think the only moment of real human contact in the show, taking her hand, and Lain is surprisingly moved by this, showing a rare moment of emotion. People worry about both Lains. One is withdrawing from the world completely, the other is amassing power without knowledge or understanding.

Meanwhile, a live streamer in quest of the Knights believes he's been let into their private server, only to see Lain at the bottom of it, who calls him an idiot and vanishes. At the end, he lies dead in a ditch by the roadside--murdered, or just hit by traffic? There is an implication those oversexed business people are, if not the Knights, at least some shadowy group behind his end.

The big reveal is the breakdown in Lain's identity. Her family is seemingly not her family; she knows nothing about them. This would explain the sheer oddness of their interactions. Being confronted by this causes a psychic break, and Lain disappears, replaced by her alter ego. T. S. Eliot had a good line, "Humankind cannot bear very much reality," and this scene reminded me of it. Lain cannot bear reality, and being forced to truly look at it for a moment seems to break her. Will her personality resurface, or has the Lain of the Wired taken over totally? And what is Lain's origin? Her refusal to look at either the world or herself seems, in part, responsible for her fractured psyche, the creation of this confident and competent doppelganger.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#71 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:42 am

The plot-heavy middle stretch is what stopped me from recording thoughts here after 5 and before 9, but I appreciate you doing so because I imagine that journaling practice will help define the agile narrative chaos for both the writer and the reader

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vsski
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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#72 Post by vsski » Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:52 pm

Episode 7Show
The same themes of delineation between the real world and the Wired, Lain and her alter ego in the Wired, and the question of who are the Knights are being explored
- This time more background is revealed about the men in black and their superior who appears to be a business man, although nothing else gets revealed
- When Lain is asked by the men in black to go with them and she meets the business man she initially is asked to help fix a computer problem which she does with ease and then he confronts her with questions especially about her parents
- She can’t remember their birthdates and not even her own and the question is posed whether they are really her real parents
- The stress of the questioning and not knowing the answers causes a sudden shift in Lain’s personality and it appears that the Lain in front of everyone is the Lain from the Wired
- At this stage the series plays more and more with crossing the line between the real world and the Wired and the viewer is less certain what is “real” anymore
- Animation wise no huge changes other than one POV sequence from a person with a camera attached to his body, where actual film images are overlayed with graphics etc. to give the appearance of someone watching through a monitor
- The shows certainly explores a large number of animation and graphic styles
Please note that for some reason when I spoiler tag my write up and replace the word “Code” with Spoiler it does it immediately and without problem, when I replace the word “Code” with Episode 7 or any other wording, it doesn’t do it any longer - not sure what I’m doing wrong, so apologies for not doing it correctly.

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vsski
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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#73 Post by vsski » Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:54 pm

Episode 8Show
- Now we are in the thick of Lain facing her Wired alter ego and trying to maintain control of her real self that keeps more and more usurped by the Lain in the Wired
- We realize how powerful a figure she has become in the Wired (or possibly always has been) to the extent that she has the power to erase memories of her school mates in the real world
- However, when she tries to reassert herself the Wired Lain takes over and the real Lain is left observing how her schoolmates interact with the Wired Lain and not the real one any longer causing her anguish and fear that she may disappear and be fully replaced by her alter ego, who she doesn’t like as that Lain shows all the personality traits she doesn’t like about herself
- The question of god in the Wired is raised again and a male voice claiming to be Lain states that the god of the Wired is not a creator of all life and even raises the possibility that Lain may be that god
- The real Lain at one point manages to confront her parents at her home telling them that she had heard that there are not her real parents but laughing it off as a joke - the parents turnaround and look at her with stone faced expression that make it unclear if they are shocked by her statement or actually admit that the statement she is making is correct
- And so the story continues adding layer upon layer of questions without giving any concrete answers yet and it will be interesting to see how (and if) the lingering questions the viewer has will be answered and if the Lain of the Wired will eventually completely replace the real Lain
- Animation wise this for me was one of the poorest episodes as the number of static shots seem to have increased but now also many shots visible that almost seem unfinished or only poorly drawn
- While this style serves the story well at times, at others the lack of budget seems obvious
- But as Michael puts it, given what they had to work with they definitely made very good choices most of the time

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#74 Post by Mr Sausage » Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:29 pm

vsski wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:52 pm
Please note that for some reason when I spoiler tag my write up and replace the word “Code” with Spoiler it does it immediately and without problem, when I replace the word “Code” with Episode 7 or any other wording, it doesn’t do it any longer - not sure what I’m doing wrong, so apologies for not doing it correctly.
You want to make yours look like the words within the code box below. It should look like this:

Code: Select all

[spoiler="episode 7"]text[/spoiler]
I've edited your posts to have the correct code. Just click 'edit' on them to see it in action, as it were.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: Anime Watchalong: Serial Experiments Lain (Ryūtarō Nakamura, 1998)

#75 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:41 pm

Mr Sausage wrote:
Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:20 pm
Episode 6Show
A bewildering amount of information is dumped in this episode, including a concept, KIDS, we've never heard of before. As best I can tell, a scientist was experimenting on the latent "parapsychological ability" in children (anywhere from mild intuition to bending coins), connecting the children so as to amplify the signal. This resulted in an accident, rendered viscerally for Lain and us, but explained somewhat cryptically. I think what happened is the children were pulled out of their physical form and rendered as psychic energy in a black cube called the KIDS, which runs an emulation that keeps the children's 'spirits' running. The scientist responsible destroyed KIDS, but the tech plans were leaked online, KIDS was reconstructed, and I guess the consciousnesses emulated inside it were reborn? Lain wonders if the Knights are the children inside KIDS. KIDS, or the Knights, or someone, has resumed the experiment, causing children in Tokyo and elsewhere to raise their hands in prayer to the sky. The combined psychic power of these praying children seems to've called forth Lain's online identity as a beatific vision in the sky, naked but sexless, like a god above creation. Whew.

I...don't know what to make of this, but it continues the themes of earlier episodes. Connection in various forms is both a good and a bad: it is powerful, but easily misdirected and misused. The big instance of course is KIDS, where connecting people psychically produces tremendous power, but causes a horrible accident. But a smaller instance is online culture, ie. how online connections can substitute for, but also supplant, healthier real-world connections. Lain's friends notice Lain is retreating into her shell, even as we see her blossoming online (showing a surprising range of affect). The show is taking a complex, nuanced view of what it means to be connected to other people.

This is also a delightfully paranoid episode. Multiple groups are at play now--KIDS, Knights, MIB--all of whom have undefined agendas and have been mistaken for each other by Lain. The MIB claim the Knights, who we earlier saw helping Lain in a light and friendly moment, conspired to blow up her computer (which has grown like an organism, seemingly expanding her room in the process). This is classic thriller territory, where friends turn out to be enemies, enemies friends, and mysterious plots multiply.

In the story's metaphysics, the dying doctor does not claim godhead for Lain. He says that, if there is a god, Lain is a blessed child. Interesting.
Episode 6Show
I think one of the most intriguing aspects is the "transformation" of Lain's room. It seems to exist in its own alternal (liminal?) reality. Not only has the amount of computer equipment "exploded", so has all sorts of dubious other items -- like steam boilers). And there seems to be several inches of water on her floor (that nonetheless doe NOT spread beyond her door). One of those (sort of) funny moments -- her father's reaction when he sees what her room has turned into (presumably HE can see it) and his decision to NOT talk to Lain after all.

My sense is that not only is Lain being drawn in to {whatever}, so is Arisu at second-hand. We don't get to hear her say much, but she clearly is worried (and doing some research that makes her even more worried).

The MIB convinced me that they aren't connected with the Knights. However, I am not sure what they DO represent. A secret government organization? Or something else?

The scene between Lain and the dying scientist was intriguing. She found out no answers but he saw her as "the child of God" -- whatever that might mean.

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