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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:00 am 
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Actually it does not go away. Native 25fps material can be preferably presented in 1080i50, as demonstrated by Arrow's Dekalog Blu-ray. So basically 24p is not the only option in Blu-ray and the PAL/NTSC issue remains.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:05 am 
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Similarly - and correctly - the BFI presented its Alan Clarke, Ken Russell and Peter Watkins BBC Blu-rays at 25fps. And Second Sight confirmed on Facebook yesterday that they'll be doing the same with Berlin Alexanderplatz and Heimat (the latter also shot for German television at 25fps).

Note that the "i50" in "1080i50" is deceptive - to all practical intents and purposes, these are progressive transfers at 25fps in terms of what the player serves up.

A US label generally has to slow these down to 24fps, as Criterion was forced to do with Dekalog.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:27 am 
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MichaelB wrote:
Note that the "i50" in "1080i50" is deceptive - to all practical intents and purposes, these are progressive transfers at 25fps in terms of what the player serves up.

Exactly. As I understand it it is only nominally interlaced, for the two adjacent fields actually come from and compose the same frame and will not cause any visual anomalies.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:29 am 
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Yes, that's correct. Because of the limitations of the Blu-ray specs such transfers have to run at 50fps, but all this means is that the same film frame is duplicated across two BD "frames". The end result is indistinguishable from watching an actual 25fps transfer, because to all intents and purposes that's what it is.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:33 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:55 pm
[quote="tenia"]

The other case (Pedro Costa) is linked to how some recent movies are shot at 25fps (like Colossal Youth).
European players are compatible with 25fps but US players are not so there is no way to reproduce easily 25fps movies, so the easiest way is usually to simply slow down the movie to 24 fps. It's what Criterion did with Colossal Youth, but also with Berlin Alexanderplatz.
This is the case for both DVDs and BDs, so that's why Criterion also had to slow down the Dekalog to 24fps.

I am still trying to understand what this means. Please correct me if any of the following statements are inaccurate.
The Blu Ray standard permits a disc to have 24 or 25 fps speed.
(further clarification: faster than 25 fps is ok, but slower than 24 fps is not - is this true?).
The USA Blu Ray players are made to play back discs at only 24 fps, while the European players can play them back at either 24 or 25 fps.
(How is this actually accomplished? Do 24 fps discs get spun in the player at a different rpm than the 25 fps disc?)
Therefore, European players can play discs made to play at 25fps at correct speed, but US players cannot.
1080i50 notation implies discs made with 50 fps (or interlaced with 25fps speed) - is this true?
If this is true, why is my OPPO player, meant for US consumer, able to play some of the Eric Rohmer discs made with 1080i50?
All this is not nuclear science but, for a layman like me, it is close!
Thank all of you, who have patiently tried to answer my questions.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Kekid,

My understanding is that most BD players can handle this frame rate. It's American TVs that can't (or have it disabled). American BD players generally have it disabled too, but a region free player will either have a chip or a setting changed that can do a conversion. Your oppo will do a local conversion before sending it to the TV.

As far as disk rotation speed, it shouldn't increase specifically due to frame rate. It just means more data is used in the same time frame (assuming an encode that is identical to a 24fps one, minus that one frame). I could be wrong on this part, but the disc should have a max "bandwidth", which is the most data that can be read in a specific period of time. I suppose it may spin faster or slower depending on the read request (unsure), but it won't be directly related to the frame rate.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:59 am 
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Location: Stretford, Manchester
Is it wrong to devoid your device of all its colour saturation when watching black and white films? Were black and white films truly devoid of any hue or did the film stock ever have a slight colour tint in one direction?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:29 am 
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I asked such a question when our French Tokyo Story BD release turned out to be slightly brown-ish and was answered that B&W stock was really without hue so should be pure B&W.

But then, maybe the person who answered me could have been wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:18 pm 

Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:10 pm
TMDaines wrote:
Is it wrong to devoid your device of all its colour saturation when watching black and white films? Were black and white films truly devoid of any hue or did the film stock ever have a slight colour tint in one direction?


It's not wrong, but there's also not much point. B&W content should have no chroma data whatsoever (not always the case, sometimes small tints creep in).

The color you end up seeing with a truly B&W piece of video depends on the color temperature of your display. D65 (x=.313, y=.329) is the standard white point for all NTSC, PAL, and HDTV, and gives a fairly neutral tone (most TVs have something insanely blue-tinted in their so-called "Neutral" color temperature, but that's besides the point).

Some people do like to have a D55 white point set up on their display for B&W movies, since it's thought to emulate what projection would have looked like back in the day.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:15 pm 
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I got into the habit of doing as they are a few earlier DVDs that have a slight purple hue and old VHS and TV rips can be susceptible to going greenish.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:37 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:23 pm
Location: Buffalo, NY
I recently watched my first b&w 4K transfer on my new 4K TV, specifically 12 Angry Men. Especially in the darker scenes the film grain looks like silver beetles crawling all over the place. There's one close up of Henry Fonda's face where this makes it look like a horror movie. Is this typical for b&w movies in 4K? Not sure I want to buy any more if that is the case.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:42 pm 
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Black and white has no impact on the amount of grain, it's dependent on the stock used for the film. 12 Angry Men is especially grainy, as is (just as a simple comparison of a film from around that same time) On the Waterfront. That said, I'd first advise you to make sure you've got the sharpness setting as low as possible without blurring - grain's one of those weird things that makes a picture just look absolutely fantastic but if the sharpness is even a little bit off it can make it look horrid. Similarly, a 4K transfer will not necessarily be a good transfer, nor does a 2K (or HD) transfer mean that there won't be a great picture with lots of good, thick grain (again, dependent on the movie). It also depends on what player and TV you are using, as one of them might be upscaling the disc (which is in 1080p, despite being from a 4K source) improperly.


Last edited by Ribs on Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:25 pm
Also look for the movie mode setting on your tv. If you're not using it, it will be a lot closer to what you want than the typical default torch mode setting.

(I usually tweak my tvs with a calibration disc, though this last time after I did that I also grabbed some settings from the internet for it which gave me a pretty decent picture, so decent that even though I keep meaning to re-calibrate it with the disc to check my settings, I never seem to get around to it - too busy watching. I got the tv back in 2013...)

(Also, I pretty much turn off every special setting that is on by default, and stick with the basics.)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:03 pm 

Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:23 pm
Location: Buffalo, NY
Thanks guys! I'll fiddle about and see if I can fix it.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 1:51 pm 
Dot Com Dom
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Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Can anyone suggest a free program for Macs that can rip/extract DVD commentaries as MP3s?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:10 pm 

Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:32 am
One option:

http://www.dvdae.com/download


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:17 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:30 am
Hello Everyone,

I have a simple 101 question which I am sure the experts of Home Theatre Viewing on this forum could help me with. I use a region free sony blu ray player and a samsung 45 inch LED TV. The 'Picture' option has 4 modes, 'movie','dynamic','standard' and 'natural' and each of these give very different image quality both static and in motion. I often find myself switching from one to the other.

Is there a preferred mode for watching films in general? The images are so different that I am not sure which of these would correspond with the framegrabs that DVDbeaver and others post.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 9:37 am
Movie is probably your best bet. And if you google your model you can probably find some other settings people have chosen, though their is no substitute for professional calibration. The few things you definitely should do are:

Put sharpness at 0.
Contrast should be relatively high.
All "smooth action" settings should be turned off. On Samsung it's usually called Auto Motion Plus or something. There are two different things that do something similar to this.
In addition, anything called "noise reduction" or that should be turned off.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Location: Boston, MA
Personally I hate the Movie setting as it makes the image look too dim and muddy for my taste, even when watching with the lights off. I have my Samsung TV set to Natural or Standard for watching films depending on which looks most right for a particular disc.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:47 am 
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ozufils wrote:
Is there a preferred mode for watching films in general? The images are so different that I am not sure which of these would correspond with the framegrabs that DVDbeaver and others post.


I recently upgraded to a Samsung ks8500 and found that the settings recommended by rtings, http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsun ... 0/settings, were a pretty good starting point, which I then tweaked using the Spears & Munsil calibration Blu-ray.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:05 pm 

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:30 am
Thanks very much for the suggestions. I think all of what Drucker suggested worked good for me except the 'Movie' mode. as ianthemovie said, Movie moved just seems a bit too creamy for my taste. Standard or Natural seems to works best in addition to setting sharpness to 0 and setting any smooth action off


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:22 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:14 pm
Right now I'm looking at the 55 inch LG B7 OLED, but I have a question about subtitle related image retention.

Several years ago I purchased a 51 inch Samsung F5300 plasma screen and, while I appreciated the picture quality, it made watching anything subtitled into English incredibly difficult. As I watched a film, retention from the subtitles would accumulate at the bottom of the screen until, after about 10-15 minutes, I had a dark bar of retained text marring the image. At the time, I couldn't tell if this was due to a fault with the panel itself, the settings I'd selected, or if plasma was just inherently incapable of reliably displaying subtitles. In the end, I returned the plasma for an LED.

Since OLED is susceptible to image retention, I was wondering if anyone who has had experience with subtitled content could comment on my concerns.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Just a tidbit about my (Panasonic) plasma, I had what I thought to be similar things going on with subtitles (among other things), but it turned out to be a bad board. Since I replaced that board, I haven't noticed anything like it. (I'm somewhat moderate with contrast settings, which could be a factor.)

Don't know much about OLED, but I suspect subtitles would be the least of its image retention issues, since the google scan (and a few thread skims) I just did didn't mention anything about them. (On the other hand this now has me wondering more about OLED in my future if/when my plasma croaks.)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:34 pm 

Joined: Sat May 10, 2008 1:10 pm
I think OLED is less susceptible to image retention than PDP was. I have an LG C7 and play a ton of video games and subtitled movies on it, and I've never had a problem (calibrated using sensible picture settings, not the blue-tinted electric vomit mode).

The only time I ever had image retention was from the Amazon Video app, and running the Pixel Refresher cleared it.

Bottom line: I would just enjoy the TV, take sensible precautions, and not worry too much about it.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:56 pm 

Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:14 pm
David M. wrote:
I think OLED is less susceptible to image retention than PDP was. I have an LG C7 and play a ton of video games and subtitled movies on it, and I've never had a problem (calibrated using sensible picture settings, not the blue-tinted electric vomit mode).

The only time I ever had image retention was from the Amazon Video app, and running the Pixel Refresher cleared it.

Bottom line: I would just enjoy the TV, take sensible precautions, and not worry too much about it.


Could you please outline what settings or precautions you'd recommend?


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