Red Desert

Discuss releases by the BFI and the films on them.

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ellipsis7
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#76 Post by ellipsis7 » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:48 am

As Forgacs mentions the connection, it may be worth suggesting visiting the current late (1958-1970) Rothko exhibition at the Tate Modern and then watching RED DESERT to look at the use of colour in both's work...

Jeffrey Weiss' paper 'Temps Mort: Rothko and Antonioni' including MA's 1962 letter to Rothko can be found in 'Rothko' ed. Oliver Wick, Skira Editore, Milan, 2007. English language edition...

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tubal
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#77 Post by tubal » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:10 am

My Blu-ray arrived yesterday. Not had time to watch it yet though. It's great to finally have this film in a worthy release.

My Godfather trilogy arrived at the same time so it seems like a good time for Blu-ray.

:D

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MichaelB
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#78 Post by MichaelB » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:39 am

Video Watchblog - one of the more original takes on the new transfer.

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"membrillo"
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#79 Post by "membrillo" » Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:40 pm

MichaelB wrote:Video Watchblog - one of the more original takes on the new transfer.
Isnt this blog from a guy in the US? So unless he has a region free Blu-ray player (there arent too many of those around) then this disc is region free????

Has this been confirmed as in someone literally checking to see if this plays in US BD players???

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domino harvey
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#80 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:58 pm

I think he played it on his computer's Blu-ray drive?

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"membrillo"
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#81 Post by "membrillo" » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:12 pm

domino harvey wrote:I think he played it on his computer's Blu-ray drive?
Didnt even think about that - thats probably it.

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ellipsis7
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#82 Post by ellipsis7 » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:39 pm

The level of detail he's describing from RED DESERT Blu Ray, and indeed that shown in DVD Beaver's hi res Blu Ray grabs, can actually be got from the SD DVD on a high end player through HDMI to HD Projector...

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MichaelB
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#83 Post by MichaelB » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:08 pm

[quote=""membrillo""]Has this been confirmed as in someone literally checking to see if this plays in US BD players???[/quote]
I believe the checkdiscs weren't region coded.

But the final release version 100% definitely is.

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pro-bassoonist
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#84 Post by pro-bassoonist » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:29 pm

MichaelB wrote:I believe the checkdiscs weren't region coded.
Yes, Red Desert was. And I am in the US. :)
ellipsis7 wrote:The level of detail he's describing from RED DESERT Blu Ray, and indeed that shown in DVD Beaver's hi res Blu Ray grabs, can actually be got from the SD DVD on a high end player through HDMI to HD Projector...
I am not quite so sure how you determined this. Do you own both or are you going simply by what you see in the caps and compare them to your SDVD.

The Blu-ray image is most definitely mot identical, or achievable, to the SDVD and I actually have both at home (and have screened the BD three times since I posted the review).

Pro-B

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MichaelB
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Re: Red Desert

#85 Post by MichaelB » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:35 pm

Well, they're both sourced from the same HD master - but the Blu-ray image is natively 1920x1080 and the SD-DVD image is 1024x576 at best, and that's only after stretching a horizontal resolution of 768 anamorphically.

I agree upscaling DVD players can sometimes do an amazing job, and my Oppo 983 is one of the rare pieces of hardware I own that actually exceeded expectations (in fact, the picture it produces is so good that I need to double-check DVDs I'm reviewing on more bog-standard equipment) - but there's no way the DVD resolution is anywhere close to the Blu-ray's. Subjectively, I'm sure the DVD can look very good indeed, but as a matter of technical fact the Blu-ray is clearly superior.

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ellipsis7
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Re: Red Desert

#86 Post by ellipsis7 » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:06 am

I rely on the evidence of my own eyes - for a long time I've been aware that where a SD DVD has been mastered from a HD transfer, there is much greater picture detail - it makes sense... This first became apparent with Criterion discs, but is here with the BFI RED DESERT... It is probably true that only an HD transfer source pushes SD DVD capability and capacity to the limit... Secondly I'm using a high end Arcam player through HDMI connection to HD projector onto a silver (not white) screen... DVD has been considerably developed, so this type of player has all sorts of technologies integrated to optimise picture, and get the most out of information on the disc... I've plugged in my son's PS3 to the system and played a Blu Ray of CASINO ROYALE, and not seen that much improvement in picture - but this is a pretty basic Blu Ray player... Blu Ray players are still first generation models and are middle end machines at most - Blu Ray will develop further, as the format and decks are finessed, indeed Arcam (the UK firm Audio Research Cambridge) are still developing their Blu Ray player (from scratch - not from bought in Sony etc. components), in the meantime they market an high end DVD player with full upscaling (the model developed after mine)... My judgement on RED DESERT is based on DVD Beavers hi-res Blu Ray grabs - I am getting that detail and better on my system, along with freckles, wrinkles etc. referred to... It is a picture quality comparable to that from a 35mm print projected in a cinema... Indeed an HD projector is essentially a bright light shining through an hi def imaging chip, much like that of a film projector gate....

Perhaps a clue to the dilemma, and a challenge to the numbers game, is that Criterion DVDs at 720x480 NTSC resolution (and even less when pictureboxed) clearly and consistently show greater detail and better transfers than their 1024x576 PAL R2 equivalents....

A final point is that with RED DESERT, and older films, the resolution in the negative, given the production date and the development of film stocks at the time may not actually push Blu Ray to the limit... I have a suspicion that Blu Ray as a format is best suited, and primarily intended, not for the subtlety of classic films, but for contemporary, effects intensive, CGI manipulated modern entertainment films, lots of bright colours, giving resolution greater than we've been used to in cinema, because essentially they are mastered digitally not on celluloid... BTW Michael, a sign of the times is these Met Operas that are coming live from NYC in HD to the BFI Imax and cinemas here in Dublin & elsewhere - John Adams' DR ATOMIC next Saturday....

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MichaelB
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Re: Red Desert

#87 Post by MichaelB » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:26 am

ellipsis7 wrote:I rely on the evidence of my own eyes - for a long time I've been aware that where a SD DVD has been mastered from a HD transfer, there is much greater picture detail - it makes sense...
How? The bottom line is that a DVD is capable of resolving 768x576 or 768x480 - you cannot get any more detail out of that, as the technology won't support it. There are certainly significant advantages to HD-sourced transfers, not least the absence of any NTSC-PAL conversion artefacts, but claiming that you get "much greater picture detail" because it's from an HD source doesn't make technical sense.

I suspect that the improvements you're seeing are the result of an improvement in digital compression techniques. Any disc that's been mastered to the current state of the art over the last three or four years will be superior to the equivalent back in 1998-2003, simply because of advances in video codecs - the fact that it's from an HD source is relatively unimportant (though it looks good in the blurb on the box).
My judgement on RED DESERT is based on DVD Beavers hi-res Blu Ray grabs -
...and not on actually seeing the disc in motion. Otherwise, believe me, we wouldn't be having this argument!
I am getting that detail and better on my system, along with freckles, wrinkles etc. referred to...
Again, how? The picture you're getting is roughly quarter of the resolution of the Blu-ray at best. I suspect what's happening is that your various video processors are interpolating data in order to beef the picture up to 1080P, and it's fooling you into thinking that what you're watching is equivalent - even though it clearly isn't (because it can't possibly be, unless the Blu-ray is substandard, which it definitely isn't).
It is a picture quality comparable to that from a 35mm print projected in a cinema...
Pure hyperbole. A 35mm print is notionally capable of resolving between 4K and 8K, many times the maximum resolution of a DVD. Even when viewing 35mm prints on a Steenbeck (as I often do at work), it's obvious that their inherent resolution is way ahead of the capabilities of a DVD.
Indeed my HD projector is essentially a bright light shining through an hi def imaging chip, much like that of a film projector gate....
You can say exactly the same about a 16mm or Super 8 projector (even more so, in fact, because the chemical, optical and mechanical processes are identical) - but they can't match a 35mm projector because they can't handle source materials of the same resolution. Just as your DVD player can't.
A final point is that with RED DESERT, and older films, the resolution in the negative, given the production date and the development of film stocks at the time may not actually push Blu Ray to the limit... I have a suspicion that Blu Ray as a format is best suited, and primarily intended, not for the subtlety of classic films, but for contemporary, effects intensive, CGI manipulated modern entertainment films, lots of bright colours, giving resolution greater than we've been used to in cinema, because essentially they are mastered digitally not on celluloid...
Well, the fundamental problem with your argument here is that you haven't seen the Blu-ray in motion - and until you do, you're groping blindly in the dark. What no frame grab is going to convey is the wonderfully velvety patina of fine but nonetheless omnipresent grain, far more authentically film-like than any DVD I've seen, which draws you into the film in a way that I've never experienced with DVD, and absolutely countering your claim that the medium is inappropriate for "the subtlety of classic films". And that's the evidence of my own eyes!

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ellipsis7
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Re: Red Desert

#88 Post by ellipsis7 » Sun Nov 02, 2008 8:03 am

Michael I accept the Blu-Ray is very good, and obviously better quality resolution than the SD-DVD, and that I really have to see it in motion rather than in grabs, however I'm simply not imagining what I'm seeing with my eyes and it's related to the transfer, and to the equipment (my Player has Motion Adaptive Progressive Scan, so no combing or ghosting at all)... I am getting that detail from the BFI RED DESERT (the freckles, the wrinkles) and I'm a very happy customer, so you should be glad... The picture quality matches exactly (and sometimes betters) the images of DESERTO ROSSO I have from the original Italian press book, the locandina poster and the original script published by Capelli Editore... The BFI RED DESERT project is really fantastic... David Forgacs does great commentary, having consulted with experts such as Carlo di Carlo etc... The more like this the better...

BTW the one point you didn't address is why say Criterion's L'ECLISSE (NTSC 480p) shows so much more more detail than say MoC's LA NOTTE (which is higher res PAL 576p), and indeed the whole raison d'etre of this forum is that CC discs are of such high visual quality even when at the lower res, and with the further handicap of pictureboxing... The other point is that SD DVD may in fact technically have a greater capacity and capability than a straight standard def transfer can exploit, and that HD transfers enable this, but obviously not to the level of full hi def....

But, listen this argument can go on and on, and that's for another day - it's sunny and I'm heading out with my family to a friend's house for Sunday lunch... And I've just heard the news that Warner France are releasing ZABRISKIE POINT on DVD in anamorphic 2.35:1 on December 3rd!...

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Particle Zoo
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Re: Red Desert

#89 Post by Particle Zoo » Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:52 pm

I watched the Blu Ray of Red Desert this weekend and was just floored by the beauty and depth of the image. I had seen the Madman DVD several times and fallen in love with the film, but the Blu Ray is a different level of experience. I could see the flashes of yellow in the grey painted rubbish heap, the rust red patches on the outside of the hut by the river. It's such a rich, textural film, (I mean as in the texture of objects, scenery etc).finding beauty in the most unlikely settings.

I feel a very personal connection with this film, because I have suffered from depression and panic attacks. Monica Vitti perfectly embodies this fear of everything that you just cannot explain to someone who hasn't experienced it themselves. Davis Forgacs says in his commentary that part of the inspiration for Red Desert may have been a crisis in Monica Vitti's own life. I can well believe it, as to my eyes, she plays the role too well for someone who hasn't experienced depression and panic attacks. The scene on the landing after she turns off her son's toy robot is very familiar to me, both personally and because it feels very similar to scenes between Donatis Banyonis and Natalya Bondarchuk in Solaris.

Indeed, it seems to me that there is a thematic connection between Giuliana in Red Desert and Hari in Solaris. True Giuliana is not actually doubting her humanity, as Hari must given her origin as a simulacrum, but she can no longer think or feel in any way that can give her relief from her alienation. Depression’s scars permanently change the landscape of the mind. Giuliiana is no longer the person she was before the car accident.

Antonioni’s bleached out colour scheme seems to sap the life out of the scenery and this chimes perfectly with my own experience. Whilst I obviously didn’t literally see the world as grey when I was clinically depressed, Antonioni represents what I felt and this includes the paradoxical beauty of the industrial landscape. Depression can be compelling, there is an attraction in the tragedy of the downward spiral.

I find the faint note of hope in Red Desert’s final scene to be profoundly moving. I won’t give it away in case anyone hasn’t seen it yet, but that tiny break in the clouds of depression, the small connection with another human being is just beautifully subtle and, believe me, when you're clinically depressed, you need those moments.

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Re: Red Desert

#90 Post by filmyfan » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:48 am

How is the new BFI commentary compared to the rather bland Madman commentary (they should have got Adrian Martin to do it -as his Madman Godard commentaries are very good ?)

Thanks

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Re: Red Desert

#91 Post by MichaelB » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:59 am

filmyfan wrote:How is the new BFI commentary compared to the rather bland Madman commentary (they should have got Adrian Martin to do it -as his Madman Godard commentaries are very good ?)
I haven't heard the Madman commentary for comparison, but I thought the David Forgacs commentary was flat-out superb - clearly exhaustively researched, it covered pretty much everything I could have wanted, from the historical/sociological background to specific cultural influences. Forgacs also did the commentary for the BFI's The Leopard, and the general consensus is that it wiped the floor with Peter Cowie's equivalent on the Criterion.

His qualifications for discussing mid-20th-century Italian cinema are pretty overwhelming - but he's also an engaging and interesting speaker, the other crucial half of the equation.

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Particle Zoo
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Re: Red Desert

#92 Post by Particle Zoo » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:31 am

MichaelB wrote:
filmyfan wrote:How is the new BFI commentary compared to the rather bland Madman commentary (they should have got Adrian Martin to do it -as his Madman Godard commentaries are very good ?)
I haven't heard the Madman commentary for comparison, but I thought the David Forgacs commentary was flat-out superb - clearly exhaustively researched, it covered pretty much everything I could have wanted, from the historical/sociological background to specific cultural influences. Forgacs also did the commentary for the BFI's The Leopard, and the general consensus is that it wiped the floor with Peter Cowie's equivalent on the Criterion.

His qualifications for discussing mid-20th-century Italian cinema are pretty overwhelming - but he's also an engaging and interesting speaker, the other crucial half of the equation.
Having heard both commentaries, I can confirm that David Forgacs' is indeed far superior. I didn't think Rolando Caputo's was bad, just lackluster by comparison.
Last edited by Particle Zoo on Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ellipsis7
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Re: Red Desert

#93 Post by ellipsis7 » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:22 am

Forgacs commentary is very good indeed, and does surpass Caputo's piece... The acknowledgements reveal Forgacs did a deal of preparation and research including consulting Tonino Guerra and Carlo di Carlo, and accessing company locations in the Port of Ravenna...

Re. his publications - 'Rome Open City' (BFI Film Classics) and 'Roberto Rossellini Magician of the Real' Ed. Forgacs/Lutton/Nowell-Smith (BFI) are also really good and recommended...

The IL DESERTO ROSSO locations today - An Aural Diary

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Re: Red Desert

#94 Post by Nothing » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:30 pm

So Michael - Artifical Eye would appear to be going Region Free, and with some pretty heavyweight titles too (Cache, Ashes of Time Redux).

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Re: Red Desert

#95 Post by MichaelB » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:19 am

Nothing wrote:So Michael - Artifical Eye would appear to be going Region Free, and with some pretty heavyweight titles too (Cache, Ashes of Time Redux).
Different rightsholder, different sales agent.

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Re: Red Desert

#96 Post by Nothing » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:24 pm

of course, however you were previously arguing that it is natural/inevitable that rightsholders/sales agents will demand (and receive) region-coding from independent distributors - it would seem not.

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Re: Red Desert

#97 Post by MichaelB » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:33 am

Nothing wrote:of course, however you were previously arguing that it is natural/inevitable that rightsholders/sales agents will demand (and receive) region-coding from independent distributors - it would seem not.
No, I said that the decision was down to the individual rightsholder/sales agent. Some insist on region coding, others don't.

Which is how it's always been, which is why the MoC DVD catalogue is a mixture of region-free and region-coded stuff - and why, as I said, it will be rather more revealing if we look at their Blu-ray catalogue in a year or so's time, when it's rather more substantial than it presently is.

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Re: Red Desert

#98 Post by peerpee » Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:38 am

MichaelB wrote:Which is how it's always been, which is why the MoC DVD catalogue is a mixture of region-free and region-coded stuff - and why, as I said, it will be rather more revealing if we look at their Blu-ray catalogue in a year or so's time, when it's rather more substantial than it presently is.
It'll only reveal some more region-free Blu-rays Michael :) - We're simply not releasing anything on Blu-ray unless we can release them region-free. Region-coding is anti-human (of course). Someone's got to make a stand, and I'm very, very happy to see that AE seem to be doing so.

Large organisations like Criterion and the BFI simply have no choice in many cases. I completely understand, and it guts me that they have to impose restrictions on their releases. I still think there's a lot more could be done in this area.

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ellipsis7
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Re: Red Desert

#99 Post by ellipsis7 » Wed Jan 21, 2009 4:29 am

I'm waiting to see this (hopefully there will be hacks or mods)...
14.01.09
Arcam FMJ BDX Blu-ray Player
This will be the first serious high-end Blu-Ray player from any specialist AV company, a player that is simply designed to be the world's best.
The BDX has been developed from the ground-up by the world's only specialist manufacturer with the capability to work at this levelof technology.
Arcam have spent 20+ Man Years of work on the project and early prototypes are already delivering performance levels that leave hugely expensive Japanese High-end players in the dust!
Alternatively may meantime go for one of those Chinese cheapo BR players - my eldest son studies Chinese at Uni, and he spends next academic year at a Chinese University (Shanghai or Beijing), so may be an opportunity to pick one up while visiting...

So far, this BFI DESERTO ROSSO is the only Blu Ray release I want to pick up in any territory, hopefully Criterion may follow up with Blu's of L'AVVENTURA & L'ECLISSE, which would persuade me to take the plunge on hardware...

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Particle Zoo
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Re: Red Desert

#100 Post by Particle Zoo » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:37 am

david hare wrote:Particle, I am very moved by your self-outing.... I have the same affliction (but it's manageable, and probably best not self-medicated) but you need the highs back every now and then. How you do that is your own thing of course.

I think the real shock in this glorious color transfer of Deserto is the varying tonalities of the primaries when they shoot into view - so many object are clearly painted, not only gloss, but matte, and of course every time they have a different impact in conjunction with the superbly balanced grays, which are more like deracinated color than just absence of light. Zabriskie is far closer to this than most people used to observe but perhaps the new HD is the key to redressing this neglect.
David thanks, it is a very difficult condition to understand without personel experience. Years of medication and therapy have stabilised me, although with weird side effects. Self medication is inevitable sometimes, my poison is red wine.

You've now made me desperate to see a really good transfer of Zabriskie, all I have is an off air recording from TCM. C'mon Sony, pull your finger out!

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