Before the Revolution

Discuss releases by the BFI and the films on them.

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McCrutchy
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#26 Post by McCrutchy » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:33 am

MichaelB wrote:
McCrutchy wrote:if I didn't know better I'd say it was cost-cutting at the authoring stage, but even so, the BFI are getting VERY PAL-happy with the extra content on their releases.
If the extras were available in HD in the first place (I think most of them originally appeared on RHV's two-disc DVD), you can rest assured they'd be on the Blu-ray. Why on earth would the BFI deliberately deny you HD content when the package already contains a Blu-ray disc? Especially given that, contrary to your bizarre "VERY PAL-happy" claim, the BFI arguably produces more genuine HD extras than any other British label?
I was referring generally to the 2011 interview. Rather unfortunate to hear that the BFI is still shooting new material in SD at all in 2011--I had assumed it would have been HD and then downscaled to PAL to maximize the bitrate of the BD-25.

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MichaelB
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#27 Post by MichaelB » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:42 am

McCrutchy wrote:I was referring generally to the 2011 interview. Rather unfortunate to hear that the BFI is still shooting new material in SD at all in 2011--I had assumed it would have been HD and then downscaled to PAL to maximize the bitrate of the BD-25.
See above. These interviews are primarily intended for streaming online, and there's nothing in their content that demands HD. Given the quantities produced (virtually all live Southbank appearances are routinely filmed these days), shooting and editing and preserving them in HD would be considerably more expensive, to no particular advantage.

Obviously, it would be different had the piece been produced by BFI DVD Publishing and intended for the Blu-ray in the first place, because the talking heads would be intercut with clips. For instance, the interview that I conducted for Institute Benjamenta was shot in HD for that reason - if you're interviewing the cinematographer and you're illustrating his favourite bits, you obviously want to go for the maximum possible resolution. But few if any of the BFI Live pieces feature clips, for copyright reasons, so that argument doesn't apply.

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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#28 Post by McCrutchy » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:12 am

MichaelB wrote:These interviews are primarily intended for streaming online, and there's nothing in their content that demands HD. Given the quantities produced (virtually all live Southbank appearances are routinely filmed these days), shooting and editing and preserving them in HD would be considerably more expensive, to no particular advantage.
I don't share your opinion, but that's good to know. I will bear it in mind when reviewing the specs of other BFI combo releases.

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zedz
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#29 Post by zedz » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand why a talking heads Q&A shot at the NFT would need to be in HD. For all the importance of the visuals it's barely a step up from audio-only.

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MichaelB
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#30 Post by MichaelB » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:34 pm

Until the mid-2000s, NFT interviews were only preserved as audio recordings (there's a delightful vintage one from 1954 included on the Brighton Rock Blu-ray). The two-camera edited versions uploaded to BFI Live are a relatively recent innovation.

But if you look at the quantity that has been uploaded - as of today, I make it 562 interviews and 238 introductions with new material being added all the time - you'll appreciate that there's going to be a substantial cost difference between creating them in SD and creating them in HD, especially bearing in mind that the complete recordings will also be preserved.

These are talking heads interviews shot live in comparatively dim lighting, the vast majority of which will never be used for anything other than streaming online. What practical difference is HD going to make that will justify the extra expense?

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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#31 Post by McCrutchy » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:16 pm

MichaelB wrote:These are talking heads interviews shot live in comparatively dim lighting, the vast majority of which will never be used for anything other than streaming online. What practical difference is HD going to make that will justify the extra expense?
Of course, it's not necessary that it be changed, but it's moreso that I'm just surprised to learn of the BFI shooting anything on SD video in 2011. However, since these are being archived, one would think that they would want to preserve them in the best possible quality, regardless of the number of them. Watching SD video is bad enough on a 50" screen, but watching it on a 4K projector with a 10' screen will probably be far less pleasant.

As for the "vast majority...never be[ing] used for anything other than streaming online", it would seem that is starting to change--assuming that the one included on the LE release of Deep End is the same style of interview, which it appears to be--so if the BFI intend to start putting more of these new interviews on disc, I think it would be beneficial to shoot them at least in 720p, and doing so would make them watchable worldwide on an HDTV.

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swo17
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#32 Post by swo17 » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:23 pm

I was also recently surprised to learn that the gas station down the street is not taking its surveillance footage in HD.

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MichaelB
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#33 Post by MichaelB » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:46 pm

McCrutchy wrote:Of course, it's not necessary that it be changed, but it's moreso that I'm just surprised to learn of the BFI shooting anything on SD video in 2011. However, since these are being archived, one would think that they would want to preserve them in the best possible quality, regardless of the number of them. Watching SD video is bad enough on a 50" screen, but watching it on a 4K projector with a 10' screen will probably be far less pleasant.
Au contraire, I've seen SD video projected many, many times on various BFI screens, and it looks absolutely fine, especially if the source is uncompressed (or less compressed than a DVD). In any case, these interviews weren't designed to be projected via a 4K projector onto a 10-foot screen - you might as well complain that they're not being shot in IMAX, to maximise compatibility with all the BFI's screens!
As for the "vast majority...never be[ing] used for anything other than streaming online", it would seem that is starting to change-
Not really - there are hundreds and hundreds of these interviews and introductions, and the number released on DVD is currently in single figures. I don't see that ratio changing any time soon - in fact, it's much more likely that the ratio will increase in favour of the online versions, as far more are being published than are being released on DVD.
-assuming that the one included on the LE release of Deep End is the same style of interview, which it appears to be--so if the BFI intend to start putting more of these new interviews on disc, I think it would be beneficial to shoot them at least in 720p, and doing so would make them watchable worldwide on an HDTV.
They look perfectly watchable on a decent upscaling player. I'm playing the Patrick Keiller panel discussion (from Robinson in Ruins) as I write this, and it looks fine. As I suspect Keiller would readily agree, if you're obsessing over the picture quality instead of listening to what he's saying, the interview has more fundamental problems than its video resolution!

Talking of which, it's probably worth mentioning that 'SD video' in this context means 576p, not 480p - so a leap to 720p wouldn't really make that much difference.
swo17 wrote:I was also recently surprised to learn that the gas station down the street is not taking its surveillance footage in HD.
Actually, there's a much stronger case for upgrading surveillance footage to HD than there is for upgrading dimly-lit interviews! But cost obviously plays a major factor here.

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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#34 Post by McCrutchy » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:50 pm

My goodness, you certainly have a lot of energy to debate this, Michael. :)

I'll leave it with you, as it's a difference of opinion, really.

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MichaelB
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#35 Post by MichaelB » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Getting firmly back on topic, I'm writing this with the Blu-ray playing in the background, and early signs are that it looks superb. The opening title confirms that the master was originally created by Ripley's Home Video (i.e. the people who produced the acclaimed Italian edition), and from what I've seen so far it's mercifully free of the problems that have plagued rather too many Italian-sourced Blu-rays. The source is a lovely crisp black-and-white print in near-flawless condition - I assume the Blu-ray encode was downconverted from the 2K digital master that played in London last April.

You can get an idea of how good the print looks from this trailer, though it's only in 480p.

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TMDaines
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#36 Post by TMDaines » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:32 pm

MichaelB wrote:Getting firmly back on topic, I'm writing this with the Blu-ray playing in the background, and early signs are that it looks superb. The opening title confirms that the master was originally created by Ripley's Home Video (i.e. the people who produced the acclaimed Italian edition), and from what I've seen so far it's mercifully free of the problems that have plagued rather too many Italian-sourced Blu-rays. The source is a lovely crisp black-and-white print in near-flawless condition - I assume the Blu-ray encode was downconverted from the 2K digital master that played in London last April..
Anything based on a Ripley's Home Video master is pretty much a blind buy in my view. They're truly one of the best companies I've seen with consistantly great video transfers. Really looking forward to this. Held off on the RHV release for a long time, so this Blu-ray will be a great first time watch.

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antnield
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#37 Post by antnield » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:46 am


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MichaelB
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#38 Post by MichaelB » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:42 am

Yes, that's very fair - and welcome proof that Italian sources can get it right if only they'd lay off on the DNR once in a while.

I've now got my hands on the DVD and can see why the extras weren't included on the Blu-ray - with only one or two exceptions, they're there for (fascinating) content rather than presentation, consisting as they do of a mixture of old Italian TV programmes and interviews recorded a decade ago on what looks like analogue SD equipment. But there's no faulting the content: this is a really substantial package that fully deserves the raves that accompanied its RHV DVD incarnation.

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Peacock
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#39 Post by Peacock » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:33 am

Wow... clearly a stunning print was used here, it's a shame the Italians who made the master decided to add edge enhancement and other digital tools as clearly without this would be a total knock out, one of the very best black and white Blus out there. As it stands it still looks very good and I'll certainly be picking this up soon....

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TMDaines
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#40 Post by TMDaines » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:39 am

Will definitely get this at some point. It looks absolutely fantastic.

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Ovader
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#41 Post by Ovader » Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:49 pm

antnield wrote:DVD Beaver
"Kudos to Vittorio Storaro with some very contemplative Antonioni-esque shots." Friendly correction but Storaro was not the cinematographer but worked as camera assistant/focus puller or as IMDb lists him as camera operator. Aldo Scavarda was the DoP.

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MichaelB
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#42 Post by MichaelB » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:24 pm

Just a quick note to say that the films originally due for release next Monday (the 22nd), including Before the Revolution have had their official release dates moved by a week to the 29th to allow for repressing stock following the Sony DADC fire.

However, some retailers, including Amazon, HMV and MovieMail, already had stock in, so it's highly likely that they'll ship as if the release date was still the 22nd - the BFI certainly isn't going to discourage them from doing so.

Off the top of my head, the affected titles are Before the Revolution, Molly Dineen Volume 2: The Ark and the two latest Adelphi titles, Fun at St Fanny's and You Lucky People!.

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MichaelB
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#43 Post by MichaelB » Sat Sep 03, 2011 6:46 am

A typically massive review from DVD Outsider:
This really is a lovely transfer, one whose tonal richness sings a hymn to pleasures of the monochrome image and whose level of detail, particularly on the opening aerial shots and just about anything involving buildings, textures or close-ups of faces, is sometimes breathtaking. The greyscale is particularly well judged, preventing any burn-out of highlights or loss of detail to shadows, and the black levels are for the most part spot on. The DVD is also impressive, but the level of detail is visibly inferior and the tonal range not as rich.

stwrt
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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#44 Post by stwrt » Sun Sep 04, 2011 2:42 am

It's a decent transfer but I wouldn't have thought the quality of the film stock enabled the film to have the high level of "tone" etc, assumed by that review.

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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#45 Post by Bürgermeister » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:15 pm

I really liked this movie, shame theres no subtitles for the song the little girl is singing which causes some distress to Gina.

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Re: Before the Revolution (Bernardo Bertolucci, 1964)

#46 Post by j99 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:53 am

It's a beautifully shot film, and the blu-ray looks fantastic, but it's so indebted to Godard, not merely as an influence but as an exact copy, it's hard for me to take it seriously.

shaky
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Re: Before the Revolution

#47 Post by shaky » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:54 am

Has anyone had a chance to do a somewhat closer comparison between the BFI and the RHV editions of BEFORE THE REVOLUTION? I've been told that the BFI has a significantly smaller bitrate and file size than the RHV, so I'm curious as to whether or not the RHV looks in any way better because of this.

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