Howard Hawks

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Iamhere
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:38 pm

Red River

#51 Post by Iamhere » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:29 pm

I watched this last night with my dad...my God How I forgotten how amazing and perfect this film is. Hawks first western and it's a great. I want to talk about it so badly. And what a performance by wayne in all black,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_pvgtMm0mg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Matt
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Red River

#52 Post by Matt » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:46 pm

Iamhere wrote:I want to talk about it so badly.
So talk instead of posting a string of banalities.

Kauno
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:01 am

Re: Howard Hawks

#53 Post by Kauno » Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:32 pm

Matt, you are mean without realizing it. Everyone cannot master English and then one tends to make "stupid" posts. I for myself love you as my brother, but maybe state it wrong, because English language does not work the way I assume.

I'm with Iamhere, Red River is an amazing and perfect film. I love the cattle drive.

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Matt
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Howard Hawks

#54 Post by Matt » Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:50 pm

I don't intend to be mean, but I do intend to maintain the standards of this forum. There are plenty of people on this forum who engage in meaningful discussion without having mastered English and I'm grateful for their contributions. All I'm asking is for people (new members especially) to make some effort to contribute to a discussion instead of posting empty platitudes. If someone says they want to talk about a film "so badly" but have nothing more to say than that the film is "amazing," "great," and "perfect," they should expect to be pressed to elaborate.

This statement has been at the top of the Forum Rules post for several years and I still stand by it:
Matt wrote:Don't just post, read others' posts. The great Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "It is the province of knowledge to speak and it is the privilege of wisdom to listen." Some people have a tendency to treat internet discussion forums as their own personal showcase. Our forum has members of all ages from all over the world. Instead of filling threads with half-baked opinions and provocations, humble yourself and remember that several hundred people read this forum every day. New members especially can learn a lot just by sitting back and reading existing posts. Don't feel compelled to post your opinion on everything in every thread. Get familiar with the forum before you start firing off what might turn out to be irrelevant questions or comments or minutiae that clutters up the board to the detriment of other users. Those who do so may be asked to rein in their garrulous tendencies and may be suspended if it continues.

Iamhere
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:38 pm

Re: Howard Hawks

#55 Post by Iamhere » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:46 pm

Okay,

anyway; I think where Hawks shines in Red River is the significance of camera movement which is only used with purpose. Camera movement can be over done and become less important, but in this film every movement seems to count (the dolly in on Tom as he doubts himself, the pan in the hotel room releasing us of danger and the tracking shot to the duel keeping with the excitement).

It must have been shocking for Wayne to dress in all black and be a darker character with white hair...Something he hadn't done to that point.

However does anyone have any thoughts on why Tess would look like she's in mourning? The wardrobe seems well thought out to show their place in time, doppelgangers or psychology.

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dustybooks
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:52 am
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Re: Howard Hawks

#56 Post by dustybooks » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:31 pm

I saw The Dawn Patrol last night via Archive disc and was quite taken with it -- it seemed very much of a piece to me with All Quiet on the Western Front and was much less superficial than the similarly themed Wings. I especially liked the structure of cyclical dread as one commanding officer pulling his hair out over sending men to die gave way to another, and the detail of listening carefully for the number of planes returning to the base to learn how many men had died. Also thought the antiwar sentiment was subtly but strongly handled (particularly in the sequence of Fairbanks meeting the German who shot him down).

I have very little experience with Hawks outside of his comedies (and the Bogart films) but I understand this is in the lower tier of his action and war pictures, in which case I'm anxious to explore further.

Iamhere
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Re: Howard Hawks

#57 Post by Iamhere » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:14 pm

Never seen it. I have seen Wings and thought of it as a minor work. I find the anti war theme funny as Hawks went on to direct Sargent York which is in my opinion one of the most patriotic films that strives for the importance of war and labor.

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domino harvey
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Re: Howard Hawks

#58 Post by domino harvey » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:21 pm

Air Force and the aforementioned Sgt York should definitely be your next stops with Hawk then, dustybooks!

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Cold Bishop
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 9:45 pm
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Re: Howard Hawks

#59 Post by Cold Bishop » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:13 pm

The Dawn Patrol is Hawk's first masterpiece, and despite some pre-talkie creakiness, it edges pretty close to its two more famed successors (Only Angels Have Wings and Air Force). It's tough and unsentimental, and here the Hawks Unit and Hawks Professional arrive fully formed.

If you want to make one hell of a triple bill, pair it with William Dieterle's The Last Flight and William Wellman's Heroes for Sale. If you allow for some discrepancies and some miracles, it plays like a great American epic.

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Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Re: Howard Hawks

#60 Post by Gregory » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:19 pm

Only Angels Have Wings is superb and moving and shouldn't be missed even by those who may otherwise balk at a film about pilots. Not that a film co-starring Cary Grant and Jean Arthur should need any other recommendation.

Jonathan S
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Re: Howard Hawks

#61 Post by Jonathan S » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:27 am

Iamhere wrote:I find the anti war theme funny as Hawks went on to direct Sargent York which is in my opinion one of the most patriotic films that strives for the importance of war and labor.
Even auteurs (and especially those working in the studio system) were influenced by prevailing attitudes.

1930 was arguably the highpoint of the inter-war pacifist movement - reflected in films like Milestone's All Quiet on the Western Front, Whale's Journey's End, Asquith's Tell England, Pabst's Westfront 1918, etc.

Iamhere
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Re: Howard Hawks

#62 Post by Iamhere » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:30 pm

I suppose that could be true that he wasn't interested in the theme, however his political views did coincide with walter brennans and waynes which were pro war. If there was one film that was largely controlled outside of hawks it would be "York" as the man himself was watching like(no pun intended) a hawk.... anyone know why Hawks agreed to do the picture if he didn't agree with the message?

Oddly enough this is the only time Hawks was nominated for an Oscar. Just wrong. Should have at least go something for "Red River", that seems easy enough or "His Girl Friday."

Hawks gets a lot of attention for his interst in gender and relationship struggles (excellent interview on that: http://www.movingimagesource.us/articles/bringing-up-hawks-20080925) but what about the subject of war? Does it just tie into gender issues for Hawks, where the plot of war is just a ploy for these other themes? That's my thoughts. "york" is another story about a man that must grow up and become a man.

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domino harvey
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Re: Howard Hawks

#63 Post by domino harvey » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:41 pm

Hawks is concerned above all else with the best, the experts (the "Hawksian hero"), so being good at warfare is just par for the course with his existent concerns

Iamhere
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Re: Howard Hawks

#64 Post by Iamhere » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:43 pm

I like that answer a lot. It puts it more simply than anything else. All his characters are concerned with being the best, no matter what it takes. Which explains yet another layer for Dunsons in "Red River" and even further back to Cary Grant's David in "Bringing up baby" as he struggles to put the bones together.

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knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Howard Hawks

#65 Post by knives » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:06 am

And keeping things specific to York I suspect his interest at the time was in how a man could perfectly embody those two sides of Americana professionally and with little contraindication (the sides being Christian pacifism and the great soldier). This leaves the film to me to be more complex than Hawks probably intended as I think he just respected York's follow through on his beliefs.

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domino harvey
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Re: Howard Hawks

#66 Post by domino harvey » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:19 pm

For those with access to That Site Which Shall Not Be Mentioned, Hawks' partially-lost Cradle Snatchers (which only survives in a truncated form missing a reel and a half) has surfaced :shock:

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knives
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Re: Howard Hawks

#67 Post by knives » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:45 pm

Such good news (even if it is an imperfect choice for a first Hawks silent).

Mark Metcalf
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:59 am

Re: Howard Hawks

#68 Post by Mark Metcalf » Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:01 pm

I'm searching for any review of Hawk's 'Road to Glory' DVD-R, and can't find any. Has anybody seen it?

Iamhere
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Re: Howard Hawks

#69 Post by Iamhere » Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:29 pm

Back to the conversation of Hawks and politics: Can't it be said that "His Girl Friday" takes a political stance in it's dealings?

Also: I had watch "Rio Lobo" last night (I haven't seen it sense I was 13, nearly 9 years ago) and I still enjoyed it. In that film his stance on Womens rights is much stronger than ever! There is 3 major lead actresses that get involved in the plotting, one gives a speech about being eyed down and drooled over and in the end the woman (whom we first see topless) is scarred by a laughing evil man...only to be shot down by her, she takes control again over her face which men google over.

Also in "Rio Lobo" is a stronger stance on race as our main hero is half mexica had half french, with a southern being with a mexican.... all as our heroes. Meanwhile one of our villains is albino (can't get much whiter than that) and his name is "whitey."

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Matt
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Howard Hawks

#70 Post by Matt » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:01 pm

The script for Rio Lobo was even written by a woman, which might have something to do with its perceived progressiveness.

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domino harvey
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Re: Howard Hawks

#71 Post by domino harvey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:04 pm

Though Hawks' films are usually sexually progressive to some degree, depending on how on-board you are with the Hawksian Woman trope. The gal good enough to hang with the guys is often the most prized character of all in a Hawks film

Iamhere
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Re: Howard Hawks

#72 Post by Iamhere » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:15 pm

Hawks wrote most of his films but credited others. I even heard some were credited under different names for his daughter. In regards to El Dorado and Rio lobo they were compiled of lost scenes he written with others for rio bravo. It was always an idea of his i suppose.

But one can't ignore the race issues he puts into the film, which seem to go un noticed while other youthful films of the time made it more of an issue of different races being together sexually.

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Matt
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:58 pm

Re: Howard Hawks

#73 Post by Matt » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:30 pm

Iamhere wrote:Hawks wrote most of his films but credited others. I even heard some were credited under different names for his daughter. In regards to El Dorado and Rio lobo they were compiled of lost scenes he written with others for rio bravo. It was always an idea of his i suppose.
From what crackpot website did you get these ideas? He had a healthy input into his scripts, more so than many studio directors, but no, he did not write his own scripts and give credit to others.

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domino harvey
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Re: Howard Hawks

#74 Post by domino harvey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:37 pm

Just checked Todd McCarthy's book-- Hawks brought in the credited author explicitly to reconfigure his past hits into a new film and then rewrote a great deal of dialog on-set, but the credit author spent four months writing the script, not Hawks

Iamhere
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Re: Howard Hawks

#75 Post by Iamhere » Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:39 pm

Interviews...some interviews done by Joesph McBride who interviewed him for a long time and written great books on the matter.
I'll try to re-find the interview about the case of B.h. McCampbell.


here is one that talks about his writting process briefly: http://books.google.com/books?id=WMxmjw ... ks&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

there is much more, I'll get latter. But I'm going to bed.

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