2000s List Discussion and Suggestions (Lists Project Vol. 2)

An ongoing project to survey the best films of individual decades, genres, and filmmakers.
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Andre Jurieu
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#976 Post by Andre Jurieu » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:25 pm

LQ wrote:Andre, why do you consider My Winnipeg a better film than Brand Upon the Brain? The latter made it pretty high on my list; the former, far from it.
Mostly because My Winnipeg is sort of a greatest hits package for Maddin (kind of like how some folks think of Pierrot le fou within Godard's early career). On the most basic level of judging mass viewing habits (which you kind of have to do a little when creating a list like this with so many other voters), I also think My Winnipeg is one of Maddin's more accessible films since its autobiographical elements aren't as opaque as in some of Maddin's other films.

Having made all those half-assed generalizations about how others receive the film, considering your question is more geared at my own perceptions of the film, I should mention that I enjoyed My Winnipeg because I believe it's one of Maddin's most personal films (which is saying something considering the uncomfortably-honest nature of his films - even if this element of his movies is played for laughs). I believe My Winnipeg may be one of the best examinations of how a city's personality (geography, history, weather, etc.) influences its citizens and artists - and obviously vice versa. Many films explore the atmosphere and mood created by a city (the medium kind of lends itself to doing so), but not very many understand and so thoroughly explore the relationship between a city and its citizens.

Also, I have to admit that the film is quite easy to relate to since I grew up in Canada and I appreciate Maddin's efforts to create a mythology for his hometown, since so many other film-makers have expended considerable effort in creating and re-affirming the image of some other city. The difference in Maddin's film is that while other directors and artists tend to emphasize the impact and inspiration of an already "important" city (NYC, LA, Paris, London, Tokyo, etc), Maddin's hometown is honestly of little consequence to the rest of the world (it's not even equivalent to Portland or Salt Lake City), but his film perfectly captures the simultaneous loathing, malaise, resiliency, and perverse pride that is created by living in a Canadian city.

Mods, I don't know if this was the correct thread to reply to LQ's question in, so feel free to move this somewhere else if necessary.
Michael wrote:I don't understand what you're talking about hype and all. Are you saying that ITMFL is over-hyped?
First off, before I get into this, I had ITMFL in my top 5, so please keep that in mind.

In my mind, hype doesn't really have much to do with whether or not something is deserving of the status it has attained, but rather it has more to do with how often we hear about that status and how the constant reminder of that status begins to influence perceptions of the product afterward. I'm not saying ITMFL is over or under-hyped. I'm just saying that seeing the film on so many lists over the years and hearing so much praise for the film tends to influence the reception of the film, which really has nothing to do with the film itself.
Michael wrote:It remains #1 of 2000s with this forum as the previous cycle proves.
Even though it's just a list on an internet forum, it's still some small form of hype. Whether our Lists Project is of any real consequence on the judgment of the inherent quality of these films is debatable.
Michael wrote:I did not vote it as #1 but its top position is greatly deserved.
Whether it deserves its position/status is not really what I'm concerned with, especially considering that such a perception depends on who is evaluating the movie. The 10 or so people who didn't include ITMFL on their list may argue that it certainly doesn't deserve its #1 position.
Michael wrote:I still think those who haven't seen the film needs a push to see it at least once.
I think they should see the film. While it's not a bad thing, I'm not convinced they need a push. I would rather they just choose to see the film on their own whenever they feel like it.
Michael wrote:I was just encouraging LQ to check out ITMFL (and Bright Star) as much as most of you here have been encouraging me to check out undiscovered gems since I joined this forum. Sometimes we all need a push.
Which is fine with me. I'm just saying that watching a movie on Valentine's Day after hearing that it's the most romantic movie ever created is setting some high expectations for someone who has so far avoided the film.

I should also point out that Punch-Drunk Love was fairly high on my list as well, though lower than ITMFL. However, I might be on the same wave-length as LQ, since I think that PDL a more romantic movie than ITMFL.
lubitsch wrote:Where are e.g. Almodovar, Eastwood, Ang Lee, Scorsese?
I was actually surprised that my own list didn't include any Eastwood, and yet I will always watch his new movies and usually enjoy or appreciate them.
And since when is Claire Denis considered to be a major film maker?
Humor.

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zedz
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm

Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#977 Post by zedz » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:51 pm

lubitsch wrote:Where are e.g. Almodovar, Eastwood, Ang Lee, Scorsese?
Back in the 70s, 80s and 90s lists, where they belong. (Though I'm assuming Ang Lee is the "Joke!" giveaway?)
And since when is Claire Denis considered to be a major film maker?
1990.

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lubitsch
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:20 pm

Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#978 Post by lubitsch » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:03 pm

Re Claire Denis, I'm neither joking nor putting her down (at least too aggressively), it's simply that she's among the more obscure directors any my reaction one of sheer surprise. Just check on the imdb the ratings and the number of votes her films received. The devoted arthouse fan knows her naturally, but compared to e.g. Ozon, Audiard, Leconte or Jeunet she's quite unknown and certainly not my pick for the French director of the decade.
zedz wrote:
lubitsch wrote:Where are e.g. Almodovar, Eastwood, Ang Lee, Scorsese?
Back in the 70s, 80s and 90s lists, where they belong. (Though I'm assuming Ang Lee is the "Joke!" giveaway?)
Erm, let me see Talk to Her, Million Dollar Baby, Brokeback Mountain, The Aviator are all supposed to be films by minor directors with few importance for the last decade. Kidding??? The omission of Ken Loach fits this tendency like a glove.
I recently flipped through the foreign language oscar nominations of the past decades and it's quite easy to see the academy taste for slightly stolid productions with a vague humanism. As for this poll here it's also quite easy to see an elitist, arguably even snobbish approach to film being overly delighted with one's own seriousness and appreciation of high art. Sorry to say it, but I don't consider neither of these mixtures very healthy.

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zedz
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#979 Post by zedz » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:10 pm

Andre Jurieu wrote:
Michael wrote:I don't understand what you're talking about hype and all. Are you saying that ITMFL is over-hyped?
First off, before I get into this, I had ITMFL in my top 5, so please keep that in mind.

In my mind, hype doesn't really have much to do with whether or not something is deserving of the status it has attained, but rather it has more to do with how often we hear about that status and how the constant reminder of that status begins to influence perceptions of the product afterward. I'm not saying ITMFL is over or under-hyped. I'm just saying that seeing the film on so many lists over the years and hearing so much praise for the film tends to influence the reception of the film, which really has nothing to do with the film itself.
Having seen just how idiosyncratic (and / or amiably bonkers) just about every list submitted was, I don't buy the hype / received wisdom explanation for any of the final rankings. Although a lot of these well-known films have the major advantage of being well-seen and / or unavoidable for consideration at least, I can't recall any list that resembled a boilerplate canon.

The other aspect is that, the more lists come in, the more the aggregate list skews towards the well-seen / well-known / readily available. The eccentric and obscure choices get pushed out because the pool of voters who have seen them is that much smaller. We can be pretty sure that everybody who would like Mulholland Dr. voted for it, and those that didn't vote for it didn't do so because they didn't want to, not because they didn't know the film existed, but there might be fifteen or twenty people who would have voted for Los Muertos if only they'd seen it. Or Police, Adjective. And when next we do this decade, there'll still be a long list of titles in exactly the same predicament.

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franco
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#980 Post by franco » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:17 pm

zedz wrote:...there might be fifteen or twenty people who would have voted for Los Muertos if only they'd seen it.
But zedz, you didn't vote for the film yourself :(

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swo17
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#981 Post by swo17 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:19 pm

lubitsch wrote:As for this poll here it's also quite easy to see an elitist, arguably even snobbish approach to film being overly delighted with one's own seriousness and appreciation of high art. Sorry to say it, but I don't consider neither of these mixtures very healthy.
Perhaps if you would have participated in the poll, some of the films/filmmakers you like would have fared better? Lists like these are always a mess of compromises between strongly held but differing viewpoints. To attempt to pinhole the aggregate result is like trying to make a fork stick in melted butter. You are yelling at a void.
franco wrote:
zedz wrote:...there might be fifteen or twenty people who would have voted for Los Muertos if only they'd seen it.
But zedz, you didn't vote for the film yourself :(
Or Police, Adjective! What gives, zedz? You told me not to worry about it!

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zedz
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#982 Post by zedz » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:25 pm

Well, to start with, Lubitsch, I think your frames of reference (imdb scores and Oscar nominations) are miles away from that of most of the participants in this project, so I don't think there's much space for dialogue on those grounds. (Yes, those other films are high-profile and popular, but so are hundreds of films that nobody voted for at all. Not a skerrick of love for Avatar, for example - have we all gone mad!!??) Denis has probably been the most generally critically acclaimed French director of the past fifteen years, while Audiard has made, what, two well-received films? I don't think there's any contest either.

And I'm sure people were actually voting for films they actually genuinely liked, not as any perverse exercise in keeping Ken Loach awake at night!

Re: my whipping boys Los Muertos and Police, Adjective - I haven't seen them, hence no vote (I may be flaky, but I'm not that flaky).

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franco
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#983 Post by franco » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:46 pm

Oh zedz, I know you haven't seen Police, Adjective, but I didn't know that you haven't seen Los Muertos. Sorry for the uninformed whipping. I kind of assumed that if one has seen Le Pont des Arts, one would have seen Lisandro already... (due to Facets DVD vs French only release)

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swo17
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#984 Post by swo17 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:55 pm

I could have sworn I once read zedz calling Police, Adjective a masterpiece. Perhaps he was just being polite? On the plus side, this now makes two whole films (along with Landscape in the Mist) that I have seen before zedz got around to them. Do I win some kind of award for this?

EDIT: Here is the quote I remember:
zedz wrote:My current top ten is basically a reshuffle of the last one with one addition (my swapsie) and one stratospheric riser (Le Pont des Arts - The Portugese Nun looks to be one of the great unseens of this iteration, along with Police, Adjective), but after that it's still rather random, and I'm reminded how many films I need to revisit before I put this to bed.
I didn't realize you meant that you were the one who hadn't seen it!

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GringoTex
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#985 Post by GringoTex » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:05 pm

lubitsch wrote:As for this poll here it's also quite easy to see an elitist, arguably even snobbish approach to film being overly delighted with one's own seriousness and appreciation of high art. Sorry to say it, but I don't consider neither of these mixtures very healthy.
Are you really trying to read individual tastes from a composite list? My list had everything from Jia, Alonso, and Martel to Robert Rodriguez, Tony Scott, and The Bourne Identity. I'm guessing most lists have a similarly eclectic quality.

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Tom Hagen
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#986 Post by Tom Hagen » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:01 am

For all of the Ang Lee ribbing that goes on around here, I honestly believe that Brokeback has become an underrated film.

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reno dakota
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#987 Post by reno dakota » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:17 am

Tom Hagen wrote:For all of the Ang Lee ribbing that goes on around here, I honestly believe that Brokeback has become an underrated film.
Couldn't agree more. It garnered quite a bit of contempt around here when it was in theatrical release, and since then it has dropped off the radar entirely. It's a sturdy adaptation of a spare piece of prose, and the characters that the leads create are finely observed and emotionally resonant. I've seen it a few times now and it never fails to move me. I put it in my top 10 and I stand by that placement, unapologetically.

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swo17
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#988 Post by swo17 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:03 am

I don't know, it was #2 on Entertainment Weekly's films of the decade list, right between Lord of the Rings and Gladiator. Entertainment Weekly. How could it possibly be any less underrated than that?

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brendanjc
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#989 Post by brendanjc » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:14 am

I saw Police, Adjective a couple days before submitting my list but it probably landed a couple hundred films shy of making it for me. (I'm looking forward to someone starting up a dedicated thread for it though to try and get why it's so lauded, I found it pretty funny but far from brilliant). I see that you ultimately didn't vote for Rumba, swo, so I guess fair is fair. :)

I'm a bit disappointed to see how the documentaries and horror films fared, which accounted for a big percentage of my list, but not too surprised. Nice to see Kurosawa's Pulse make the big list and to see that someone else voted for The Descent, at least. The biggest surprise for me - Antichrist making the top 100 and leaving Dancer in the Dark off; I feel like the former's stock will drop precipitously by the next 2000's list once the buzz wears off.

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swo17
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#990 Post by swo17 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:47 am

Rumba made my Top 10 for 2009 but I guess you've pretty much got to be in the Top 5 to make a Top 50 for the decade. With Police, Adj. (and I'm almost sick of talking about this movie by now!), what really elevated it for me is that I think it's much more than a comedy. In fact, I'm not even sure if it is a comedy. It might be more clever than it is funny. I don't know quite what it is, which is part of its charm for me, but I love thinking about it, and I think it speaks a lot to how meaningless many of the things that we devote much of our time to in life really are. Maybe these mundane tasks of ours aren't as pathetic as the beat the officer in the film is assigned to, but there are certainly things that I do at my own job that serve no grand purpose in the long run, and that I would never ever do were it not for the fact that I am being paid for it. Then there is of course the whole angle of what defines the law and whether or not it is immutable. Anyway, lots to think about, and fortunately I had the advantage of being able to sit with the film throughout most of the project--it definitely made good use of that time in my mind!

You raise a good point with Antichrist though. Speaking as someone who voted for it, I tried very hard not to buy into the hype, nor to shy away from it too much. This is of course doubly difficult with a film like this, which is intentionally so polarizing. But I did watch it a second time and felt strongly that it belonged on my list. In the end, who can say how it will stand up in 5-10 years time? For the record, I also voted for Dancer though.
Last edited by swo17 on Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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reno dakota
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#991 Post by reno dakota » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:48 am

swo17 wrote:I don't know, it was #2 on Entertainment Weekly's films of the decade list, right between Lord of the Rings and Gladiator. Entertainment Weekly. How could it possibly be any less underrated than that?
I took Tom's comment to be restricted to this forum, so my reply was as well. I don't believe the film is underrated in general, but I do think it deserves more love around here (particularly around list-making time).

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Sloper
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#992 Post by Sloper » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:34 am

zedz wrote:Audiard has made, what, two well-received films?
At least four, I think. Sure, A Self-Made Hero and Read My Lips were a little odd, but they were pretty great films. Just saying.

Oh, and brendanjc - I also thought The Descent was a great film.

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domino harvey
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#993 Post by domino harvey » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:35 am

Antichrist came in at like five or six for me and I was extremely pleased to see it chart as high as it did. Everyone voted for films they only saw recently, so I don't buy into the "hype" argument as being valid at all

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GringoTex
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#994 Post by GringoTex » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:07 am

Martel's La Cienaga makes the top 50 while Irreversible is left off. I've never been prouder of this forum.

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Awesome Welles
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#995 Post by Awesome Welles » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:46 pm

GringoTex wrote:Martel's La Cienaga makes the top 50 while Irreversible is left off. I've never been prouder of this forum.
I feel like I'm the only one who hasn't seen La Cienaga, is the R1 release decent? It doesn't have a UK release...

Personally I feel like Irreversible is a great film like Requiem for a Dream (both also rans at 100-200 points) but I was voting for films I love, not films I think are admirable. I wouldn't watch either again any time soon but that doesn't mean I don't think they are great films. Does anyone else share this view? I wonder what this means for films that are great but not 'loved' so to speak.

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colinr0380
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#996 Post by colinr0380 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:17 pm

Awesome Welles, La Cienaga has played a couple of times on Film4, which is where I saw it a couple of years ago, so it may turn up on there again soon. It is certainly more than overdue for a thrown away 2.30 a.m. mid-week screening on Channel 4 sometime, so keep an eye on those TV listings! (Note to distributors: Of course even better would be a DVD release at the same time as The Headless Woman comes out!)

Nothing
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#997 Post by Nothing » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:03 am

Tom Hagen wrote:Any thoughts on who the auteurs of the decade might be? Based on the love Inland Empire is getting around here, Lynch may well win on that particular metric as well.
And how ironic, given that Lynch has gone off the boil since his creative peak in the late 80s and 90s.

Von Trier would have to be the 'director of the decade' for me (didn't he say so recently himself? ;)). Best new director: Ghobadi (rather insightful that no-one else voted for him...)

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Cold Bishop
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#998 Post by Cold Bishop » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:52 am

For the combination of quantity, quality, consistency and genuine innovation, I don't think anyone beats out Hong Sang-Soo. I didn't turn in a list this time around, but I would have been tempted to include all seven of his features if I had.

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zedz
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#999 Post by zedz » Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:22 pm

Nothing wrote:
Tom Hagen wrote:Any thoughts on who the auteurs of the decade might be? Based on the love Inland Empire is getting around here, Lynch may well win on that particular metric as well.
And how ironic, given that Lynch has gone off the boil since his creative peak in the late 80s and 90s.

Von Trier would have to be the 'director of the decade' for me (didn't he say so recently himself? ;)). Best new director: Ghobadi (rather insightful that no-one else voted for him...)
I think any "auteurs of the decade" extracted from this exercise would have to balance total points with number of films. Even though Lynch, PTA and Yang scored high, they can't really dominate a decade with only one or two films. I'd also exclude the Coen Brothers, because although four of their films were nominated, a substantial part of their output was not, and I'd wager that even their biggest fans would admit that they produced some of their weakest films this decade. Ditto Wong: only three features, one of which seems to be overwhelmingly regarded as his worst.

This leaves, from the previous top ten:

Haneke (sorry, Nothing!) - all features nominated
Wes Anderson (sorry, Nothing! - actually, let's just take the apology as read for the rest of the list) - all features nominated
Tsai - all features nominated
Denis - all features nominated
Jia - strong support for 4 out of 5 features, no nomination for 24 City
Von Trier - 4 out of 5 features nominated (no love for Manderlay), plus his collaboration with Leth
Van Sant - all features apart from Finding Forrester nominated, but I'm sure all of us, Van Sant included, consider that part of a former life

Plus:

Hou - all four features nominated, 958 points in total
Hong - six features nominated (not the 2009 one, which I'm guessing most people haven't seen yet), 850 points in total
Martel - strong support for all three features, 841 points. She's the only director on this list whose feature debut occurred in the 2000s, so she should get the "Best New Director" crown.


And Maybe:

Weerasethakul - 856 points, but only three out of five features (and one short) nominated. Also made his feature debut this decade, so runner up or winner on that count, depending how you quibble over the points.

Nothing
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Re: 2000s List Discussion and Suggestions

#1000 Post by Nothing » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:27 am

No need to apologise for Anderson (I voted for The Darjeeling Limited, although not very high up the list).

My theory is that there are two contingents on this board, a more mainstream-leaning mostly anglo-centric contingent and a 'high brow' academic contingent who are presently preoccupied with East Asian cinema and Claire Denis. Films like ITMFL and Yi-Yi rank highly for both, therefore the particular success of these titles. Someone like Ghobadi is too obscure to have been seen by the former and not presently in vogue with the latter, therefore drops off the list completely.

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