Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

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Shrew
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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#76 Post by Shrew » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:38 pm

It's hard to say what's Ford and what's Toland. Harris makes it seem like Ford was stuck cleaning up Toland's mess, but he might be biased toward letting Ford off the hook. There's a letter from Ford in April 1942 describing how he doesn't trust the Japanese and is photographing lots of them on the island, and specifically mentions trying to find Japanese signs as many are changing to English (particularly the case of "Banzai Cafe" becoming "Keep Em Flying Cafe" that ended up in the finished film). So Ford was likely involved in getting some of the documentary footage and early planning for the film, including some of its anti-Japanese bias. However, it does seem like Toland took control once Ford left for Midway, and the scenes with Walter Huston and Henry Davenport arguing about how hyphenated the Japanese are were likely filmed by him; but credit for the recreations of the Pearl Harbor attack also probably goes to him. I'd also bet Toland did the weirdo scene of Dana Andrews and Huston's backs strolling through Arlington and discussing the possible end or non-end of wars through increasingly awful baseball metaphors. Harris credits Ford for the sequence of diverse fallen soldiers introducing their parents (in both versions), though I don't know if there's anything to corroborate that aside from a "Fordian" feel.

Anyway, Toland probably did most of the long version of the film, but Ford may have also thrown Toland under the bus for what was not a well-received picture, instead taking more credit for the shorter version. I don't think the two ever worked together again.

As for differences between the two versions: the shorter is probably better, though it is much more of a standard newsreel/re-enactment picture. It cuts out the first 40 minutes of the longer version entirely (a long, tortured conversation between Huston as Uncle Sam and Davenport as "Mr. Conscience" about how America's not properly prepared for war and, as mentioned, how you just can't trust those Japanese, don't you know they have their own language and religion!?), trims some of the Pearl Harbor re-enactments (apparently the navy complained about how certain guns depicted were not actually on the ships in Pearl Harbor), shortens the denouement to focus more on the rebuilding of the U.S. fleet, and cuts out the Arlington scene. Scenes like that last one are strange enough that they raise the long version closer to something like art, but it's still a very muddled, racist art.

Also, there's one brilliant edit the short version I want to highlight. In the long version, the bombing of Pearl Harbor is followed by some scenes of civilians running around, including shots of an Asian baby crying and an elderly Asian couple looking anxiously at the sky, followed by scene wherein a Japanese man denies seeing Japanese planes to a white reporter. The short version keeps everything as is, but adds a single insert of a "Japanese Consulate" plaque before the Japanese man starts talking, which totally recontextualizes the whole thing.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#77 Post by movielocke » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:39 pm

That's a really superb post, thank you!

Young Cassidy also on Filmstruck, is another partly directed by Ford film, this one he bowed out from due to health reasons.

But the script is clearly Ford influenced through nearly the entire run of the film, and so many moments of the film feel very Fordian, particularly the mother, and the good natured bar fight. On the other hand, there are clear directorial flourishes from Cardiff throughout the film, such as an absurd deep focus shot of a framed drawing and a woman, that frequently declare a different style. Since the underlying nature of the script doesn't change we're left with the weird hybrid of a film that feels very Ford-like but that rarely looks like a Ford film.

I felt a little bit shocked at how thoroughly the extended family vanishes when the sister dies. the women had a passle of children and then they just vanish, never to be cared about again. Sloppy adaptation or sloppy writing or sloppy revisions, but either way it rankles.

It's a bit weird how the film flits from novel writing to play writing to failing and succeeding all seemingly in such a compressed time, the perfunctory arc of him becoming a successful writer seems so much less interesting than the social situations we're embedded within for the first half of the film.

The real stand out of the film, and the entire reason to watch, is the most un-Ford part of the film and in the first twenty minutes! Anne Coates' tour-de-force Potemkin inspired riot is absolutely brilliantly cut, some of the best work she ever did.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#78 Post by movielocke » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:18 pm

With the deadline coming up soon, is it possible to stagger them to one a week? I'd say do Renoir first since he has the fewest films (and I'd love an extra week or two for Ford).

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#79 Post by domino harvey » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:22 pm

I would not be opposed since it means the work on my end is spread out, but we have to keep the schedule so the Pre-Code List would still need to start on the 16th. If others don't mind the overlap, I don't mind setting a more staggered list submission timeline

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#80 Post by movielocke » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:24 pm

Seven Women was a serious surprise to me, it's such a damned good script, with fantastically great roles for the cast, but it's such a goddamned shame the film is ruined because Asian actors were excluded from the extremely exaggerated representations of masculinity and sexuality Ford crafts in opposition to the equally extreme sexually repressed women.

Of course, in addition to both the yellow-face and the exclusion that is its compatriot, the film also suffers a serious misstep to portray the Chinese men in exactly the same way Ford portrays Native Americans in westerns. it's such a damned shame that the film is allowed to go so far off the rails. And if the studio isn't allowing you to cast Asian males, Bringing in the approach of the Lost Patrol would have been far superior, keep them invisible, psychological, totally off screen until the very end. it would have upped the dread and tension, and made the title even more appropriate.

Oh well, it's damn near a great film, but it's a damn big problem too. The film has a great ending though. Anne Bancroft is amazing in this film, what a fantastic role.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#81 Post by domino harvey » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:33 pm

I don't think the movie would work by keeping them unseen. Someone as versed in classical studio era as yourself knows it was either make it like this or not at all, so I think you really have to give some context-based rope to the racial representations and move on to other focal points

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#82 Post by movielocke » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:44 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:33 pm
I don't think the movie would work by keeping them unseen. Someone as versed in classical studio era as yourself knows it was either make it like this or not at all, so I think you really have to give some context-based rope to the racial representations and move on to other focal points
Certainly, I actually thought of that only because of two things: I just rewatched The Lost Patrol and was seriously impressed at the psychological dread imparted by keeping the enemy unseen and unknown until the final two minutes, and I just saw in the 30s thread a post on The Women, famous of course for writing around all the male interaction. These two things got conflated in my mind and I thought, damn that would be interesting if they managed to write it combining those two approaches.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#83 Post by domino harvey » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:46 pm

That does sound intriguing, I just think it's fundamentally a different kind of threat than the ever-present one here that necessitates on-screen representation. For what it's worth, I think 7 Women is one of Ford's best (and surely among his most slept-on titles) and it's on my list.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#84 Post by movielocke » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:51 pm

I agree, it's the contrasts that are amazing and make the film. I do think it's seriously underrated, but it's probably mid twenties Ford for me, and not likely to make my list.

on the other hand, how underrated is it really? Letterboxd shows it is the eleventh highest rated film of Ford films.

https://letterboxd.com/director/john-ford-2/by/rating/

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#85 Post by Shrew » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:22 pm

A staggered list would be good for me, particularly as I haven't been able to fit in any Godard films. Of the three, he was the one I'd seen the most films from at the start of this project, but now Renoir and Ford have overtaken him. I'm almost done with Renoir (though can anyone direct me to a copy of La nuit de carrefour?) and almost as done with Ford as I can mentally handle. 3 directors at once may be a bit too much to handle (though it's helped me, if only psychologically, that Ford and Renoir overlap so much with the 30s list)

As for how underrated 7 Women is, maybe it's better to say it's an underseen film, though I don't think it gets much discussion from Ford scholars, despite being one of the great Final Films (a surprisingly small pantheon). Also, Letterboxd ratings are pure averages, so smaller films benefit from the fact that mainly true believers are voting for them. I mean, the The Long Gray Line is 6th in those rankings, and having just watched it, that's fair evidence letterboxd is run by the military deep state. It's a thoroughly middling Ford film, often lovely and moving in the right spots, but never too boring and never too interesting. I think there's precisely one great moment: a devastating match dissolve of Tyrone Power rising from a church pew to walking home in the snow.

The Lost Patrol has a few more great moments in its proto-slasher take on a war film, but it also suffers from the idiotic character decisions that plague its descendants. Like, they're at an oasis: why wouldn't the sergeant bring a canteen round to the sentry baking in the hot sun? Why would anyone let Karloff in the army? I didn't realize how much Bataan lifted from this film, written by the same writers: (the unseen enemy, digging one's own grave, even solving the main problem with an exploding plane). Bataan's much better though.

But Pilgrimage. The Ford filmmakers thread is full of people going "Holy shit this movie" as they run through the Ford at Fox set, so to keep the tradition alive: Holy shit this movie. Most of Ford's early 30s output feels languid and unfocused, or just weird, that this sensitive but uncompromising portrait of maternal anger and regret is all the more jaw-dropping. This feels like the mature, confident Ford of 1939. The last 20 mins pile the sentiment on a bit thick, but the film maintains such a consistent balance of tones that it still works.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#86 Post by knives » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:58 pm

The Renoir is available on the back channels and I believe there's an unsubbed DVD from France.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#87 Post by movielocke » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:01 pm

Indeed Letterboxd is averages, if you sort by popularity, 7 women comes in 19th and long gray line is way down in the thirties I think.

I am totally mixed on Long Gray Line, it’s got an utterly turgid first hour, but the second half is markedly better with some genuine Ford emotional moments if you’re into that thing.

Goddamn pilgrimage is so damn good, I have it slated for a revisit, which I’ll hopefully fit in, but I’m worried it won’t hold up to my initial love of it. Right now it’s in my top ten, and I’m most curious about revisiting it and prisoner of shark island.

Looking through the Ford list, I’m surprised how I’ve never seen grapes of wrath theatrically, most of his big films have had showings I’ve been to, but in nearly two decades in Los Angeles, never that one, that I remember.


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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#88 Post by Rayon Vert » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:03 pm

Shrew wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:22 pm
But Pilgrimage. The Ford filmmakers thread is full of people going "Holy shit this movie" as they run through the Ford at Fox set, so to keep the tradition alive: Holy shit this movie. Most of Ford's early 30s output feels languid and unfocused, or just weird, that this sensitive but uncompromising portrait of maternal anger and regret is all the more jaw-dropping. This feels like the mature, confident Ford of 1939. The last 20 mins pile the sentiment on a bit thick, but the film maintains such a consistent balance of tones that it still works.
I remember that McBride really praises this film on the dvd commentary.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#89 Post by domino harvey » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:09 pm

Pilgrimage is so godawful and I'm just as confused now as I was whenever I first watched it and read the entire board was against me. I cannot stand sentimental comdram Ford and I hate that old woman's grating performance beyond measure

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#90 Post by Rayon Vert » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:26 pm

My own opinion was something in the middle (I gave it a B-). There are some really abrupt changes in tone here, even by Ford's standards.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#91 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:03 pm

Okay, don't ever say I don't listen to ya
domino harvey wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:03 am
UPDATE
JEAN RENOIR LIST DUE OCTOBER 15
JOHN FORD LIST DUE OCTOBER 22
JEAN-LUC GODARD LIST DUE OCTOBER 29
I'm obviously never going to get around to doing the Ford and JLG filmographies, so, if you have a question about eligibility, just ask and I'll settle it

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#92 Post by movielocke » Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:16 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 2:03 pm
Okay, don't ever say I don't listen to ya
domino harvey wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:03 am
UPDATE
JEAN RENOIR LIST DUE OCTOBER 15
JOHN FORD LIST DUE OCTOBER 22
JEAN-LUC GODARD LIST DUE OCTOBER 29
I'm obviously never going to get around to doing the Ford and JLG filmographies, so, if you have a question about eligibility, just ask and I'll settle it
Much appreciated, thank you! I'd have preferred Ford last, as my rewatch list for him is so very very long, but ah well, the extra week helps a lot, I need to get some thoughts down on the big ones I guess:

my Darling Clementine This rewatch completely blew my socks off, this was lower top ten Ford for me, I think I had it at 7, but it flew all the way up to third, at least, it is going to be a struggle whether or not it or Searchers comes out at number two. The pacing of the film is just perfect. The slow building of the conflict from the first scene, but allowing the time to abide in Tombstone without forcing that conflict to be driven forward, instead developing the relationships of the Dopplegangers Earp and Holliday was just magical to behold. And somehow, I forgot that the film's dual climax is Ford's best climax ever. By giving us the Griffith like chase of Holliday, we have a massive adrenaline rush, but by following it up with the slow, methodical stalking down the streets of Tombstone, the dread and tension of that scene is multiplied because we're coming off the chase high. Just brilliant masterful editing and pacing. I guess the third time was the charm for me watching this.

The Searchers I found much more troubling, but that's because the film's central thrust, Ethan's struggle to overcome his own and his society's racism and misogyny, is subdued (without overt or didactic scenes to declare this is the intent)--deliberately, because Ford does not want to antagonize the audience, rather he wants to persuade them to join in Ethan's rejection of racism and misogyny in the end of the film. And I find it troubling because on a first viewing, it's hard to view John Wayne, given his star power, as as bad a person as Ethan is, so a first time around, we never quite believe that Ethan will not do the right thing. But having watched it again and again over the years, I'm always amazed as the delicate balancing act of the script that keeps Ethan so distant, and the tortured qualities Wayne puts into his performance. And the ending is just so very sad, as the quaking Debbie is ushered into a society that will hate her, and Ethan, having rejected that society's racist mores and values, is rejected by that society in turn, literally shut out.

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence was my first Ford film, way back in high school, and I think the first time I had seen a film with James Stewart (other than half scene bits and pieces of It's a Wonderful Life). I remember being amazed and loving the film, and I still do, but it is a film that completely coasts on the twin engines of Star Power (from all four leads) and the near perfection of background cast. The script itself is painfully weak, from the didactic schooling scenes, to the unneccessary framing story, to the total lack of background, arc, or story regarding John Wayne's character (or Jack Palance and Vera Miles' characters). James Stewart has the best role, which other than the supporting cast, is the only good role. And it's a shame that Liberty Valance, which is Ford's best pure antagonist villain, doesn't get as much to work with as Walter Huston got (with much fewer scenes and dialogue) in My Darling Clementine. That said, I love the atypical structure of placing the climax at the end of the second act, and then gradually watching James Stewart collapse under first his guilt, but then his guilt for lying. No matter what way he turns, if he accepts the positions and authority being thrust on him, he can't do the right thing, and seeing him unable to come up with a solution but also being too practical to simply walk away and let his life and others be ruined by the truth makes him an amazing sort of cowardly hero, it's a fascinating takedown of politicians, that even the good ones build themselves up on skeletons and lies and are too obsessed with personal success to have actual honor--but also that society at a certain point takes over, and one cannot even make that choice for oneself anymore, because society is corrupt and hypocritical institutionally. God, the film is almost so damn perfect, if only Tom Doniphan were as well written as Doc Holliday.

Young Mr. Lincoln has just one of the best pure performances Ford ever got, and in many ways, that is all the film needs. It's funny, on this project, I am REALLY loving all the Ford films that have meandering, almost plotless first acts, where the film simply paints a series of vignettes while occasionally dispensing little bits of plot along the way, but more or less just not giving a damn about what it is that's going to be tying up the back half of the film. It really lets you into the world and gets you caring and involved and then the plot sneaks up on you and the film zips right along to the climax. Wagon Master is much the same way, taking over half the film before the antagonists enter (back in). I love the silly courtroom beats of the film, and appreciate that the film ultimately avoids making the entire thing a courtroom drama. I had somehow completely forgotten the scene when he talks down the lynch mob, possibly because it got conflated and jumbled up with To Kill a Mockingbird.

The Grapes of Wrath I haven't seen this since High school, where the novel was required reading in the midwest (and naturally we followed it up with a week long viewing of the film), "shockingly" I've found out the novel is NOT required reading in California high school, gee, I wonder why? The film hits so much harder today, with the Global Financial Crisis so recent, with homelessness in such a crisis in California, and with Tent cities today that rival what was happening back then, and of course with today's vicious hatred of migrant farm labor. Seeing that all the Joad's needed to avoid death by starvation was something as simple as the government place to camp safely--a literal safety net--and knowing just how fucking viciously every liberal and conservative in California are joining forces to fight against any effort to actually address housing the homeless (we can spend billions so long as its not near me myself and I), and knowing that even today, we don't need to build billion dollar projects, when something as simple and safe as these camp facilities are all that is needed, and that every local interest would fight tooth and nail to prevent it... shit it makes me depressed.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#93 Post by movielocke » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:47 pm

Stagecoach This is the fourth or fifth time I've watched it, and the first time I really loved it without reservations. The class critiques were more impactful, the compositions and camera blocking more impressive (I love all of the throwaway dramatic shots compressing space on these characters), and the editing is simply superb, particularly (as in My Darling Clementine) with the dramatic chase, followed up by FIFTEEN minutes of stressful ticking time bomb countdown to the midnight shoot out. It is also fascinating to see just how much of a huge companion The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence is to this film, the two films should really be seen together as a double feature, because of how well they fit together (cast wise, of course, but also just little easter egg things that make the two pair together perfectly)

I was ill while I watched Rio Grande so my impressions are probably clouded by a pounding headache and angry stomach, but while the film is strong with lots of good elements throughout, I found the pacing to be off. For me, it was Mclaglin and O'Hara that rescued the film, constantly lighting up the screen with their indomitable presences. Ford's films benefit so much from the strong presence of women it is a shame he didn't make more strictly women oriented pictures. This film could be about a father son relationship, seems to need to be so, but it doesn't really go anywhere with it, then on to the indian climax.

I didn't love Just Pals as much as the first time around, although it's still a delightful bauble of the early Ford films, perhaps my second favorite of his silents. I was really fascinated by the rural mixture of modernity and pre-industrial that the film represents as contemporary 1920s rural america, so much of our visual record is of the purely rural pre-industrial or the purely industrial urban, so although this is of course stagebound, it is also a fascinating document.

This is Korea! is kind of shite, it's fundamentally just a series of bleak explosions and reverential voice over to the glories of the hellfire of napalm.

The Sun Shines Bright is quite good, but uneven throughout. It's a very compromised and morally confused film when it comes to the judge and the class and race consciousness of the film. The heart is clearly in the right place, but it's also clearly off on the wrong foot.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#94 Post by domino harvey » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:43 pm

You know, never mind on the staggered submissions: submit all three or whichever three by the 29th

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#95 Post by movielocke » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:11 pm

Woo, seven more days! okay, now I can rewatch Mogambo and Two Rode together and the Will Rogers films and maybe two more new to me films: I've not seen Horse Soldiers, Donovan's Reef, Gideon's Day, The Rising of the Moon, Black Watch, The Fugitive, nor the Last Hurrah, but all are available for easy streaming rental, any recommendations?

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#96 Post by knives » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:18 pm

The Rising of the Moon is probably the best of that lot, but Donovan's Reef charms the hell out of me being Ford at his most relaxed.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#97 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:34 pm

Those two would be my recommendations as well. Gideon's Day is fine but negligible, and I don't like Last Hurrah, the Horse Soldiers, or the Fugitive. Haven't seen Black Watch

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#98 Post by movielocke » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:14 pm

Donovan’s reef was my top pick, and rising of the moon is very tempting because it’s only 80 minutes.

As I’ve been flipping through a lot of my Ford discs the past couple weeks (3 box sets, 3 criterions, a dozen standalones), I’ve been really impressed at the plethora of special features and particular commentaries available for his films and not just on the criterions. WB and Fox put something interesting on about 75% of the films they put out. I’d completely forgotten that.

I’m also a bit irritated I never heard about the five film ford Columbia collection as I’d have bought it years ago. :-p

I will probably follow up this thirty day ford binge by rereading the eyman biography “print the legend” which I last read almost fifteen years ago when I’d only seen maybe ten Ford films.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#99 Post by Rayon Vert » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:33 pm

Horse Soldiers is on my list, I think Donovan is too.

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Re: Summer With Jean, Jean, and John (Auteur List Projects)

#100 Post by knives » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:55 pm

I do like that one though it is in a wing with his his long films which don't work for many.

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