Only on the image side, according to this analysis of the "restored" soundtrack.
Studio Canal / Kinowelt / Optimum
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
- rapta
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
Sorry I thought we were talking encodes (was already aware these were not examples of in-house restoration).
- tenia
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
Ah OK, my bad then. Then yes, these encodes were very good (at least MD was performed by David Mackenzie), but they seem to be rather the exception than the rule. I'm for instance quite eager to see their new Dam Busters disc because it looks quite good but I can't understand why they would give such a new seemingly lavish restoration the same AVB than the previous disc, an AVS which is relatively mediocre (20.5 Mbps).
We'll never thank Moshrom enough for his work on soundtracks and I hope he'll be able to do some more. It's probably the best investigative work there has been on AQ, which made me realise AQ analysis and review is like 15 years late compared to PQ.Jonathan S wrote: ↑Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:42 amOnly on the image side, according to this analysis of the "restored" soundtrack.
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
Trailer for the new 4K restoration of The Deer Hunter.
I'm extremely happy that it doesn't seem that the film has been tealified!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7q1SjVdsNk
I'm extremely happy that it doesn't seem that the film has been tealified!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7q1SjVdsNk
- feckless boy
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Re: La Religieuse
The trailer for La Religieuse looks way too "tealy" to me. Granted it has been a few years since I saw an actual print, but that's not the way I remember It.
- tenia
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
I suppose this is an Eclair restoration, since some of their restorations have this exact same grading (Pinoteau's Le silencieux, very recently, but also Sautet's Une histoire simple, Tarkovski's The Sacrifice, and Malle's Atlantic City, Black Moon & Lucien Lacombe, notably). I thus, like Ritrovata's yellow LUT table, doubt this is totally accurate.
- fdm
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
I don't recall it looking like that on filmstruck either.
- 4LOM
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
It is a Ritrovata restorationtenia wrote:I suppose this is an Eclair restoration, since some of their restorations have this exact same grading (Pinoteau's Le silencieux, very recently, but also Sautet's Une histoire simple, Tarkovski's The Sacrifice, and Malle's Atlantic City, Black Moon & Lucien Lacombe, notably). I thus, like Ritrovata's yellow LUT table, doubt this is totally accurate.
- tenia
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
My bad about the lab, then (though it doesn't change my feeling about the color timing).
- Tommaso
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
As someone who has an older French dvd release (with fansubs added) and who has seen the film more than once on TV in the 1980s and 90s, allow me to say that this colour scheme - if it's on the actual release and not just on this trailer -appears to be even more appallingly wrong than what was done to "The Tree of Wooden Clogs" in Criterion's release. Truly awful and a travesty of Rivette's and Levant's extremely careful and beautiful camerawork.
- jsteffe
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
Someone who just came back from the Bologna festival told me that L'Immagine Ritrovata fixed their LUT problem in 2016, so newer restorations shouldn't be affected by the same teal/yellow push that marred their work on THE COLOR OF POMEGRANATES and A FISTFUL OF DOLLARS. But after seeing this Rivette trailer I remain skeptical until I see clear evidence otherwise.
- tenia
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
I'd be wary of that claim for 2 reasons :
- Ritrovata's main LUT issue is their "yellow bias + milky blacks" look. Getting rid of that would get issue of, to me, only one of the current grading issues, the other being the standardised colder metallic blue look some movies have, though this look more often come from Eclair than Ritrovata.
- the 2016 cut-off about fixing their LUTs : the Bruce Lee movies were restored in 2016, like Legend of the Mountain. All 5 have the usual yellow Ritrovata look, just like their 2013 and 15 restorations (namely : Dargon Inn and A Better Tomorrow). Gli specialisti was restored in 2017, and while it isn't the blanket Ritrovata grading, you can still see it pour through some sequences (interior ones mostly). I can't find many other 2017 restorations they've performed to be sure.
This being said, if they "fixed" it, at least it'd mean they're aware of having something to improve and actively working on it, so that's positive !
- Ritrovata's main LUT issue is their "yellow bias + milky blacks" look. Getting rid of that would get issue of, to me, only one of the current grading issues, the other being the standardised colder metallic blue look some movies have, though this look more often come from Eclair than Ritrovata.
- the 2016 cut-off about fixing their LUTs : the Bruce Lee movies were restored in 2016, like Legend of the Mountain. All 5 have the usual yellow Ritrovata look, just like their 2013 and 15 restorations (namely : Dargon Inn and A Better Tomorrow). Gli specialisti was restored in 2017, and while it isn't the blanket Ritrovata grading, you can still see it pour through some sequences (interior ones mostly). I can't find many other 2017 restorations they've performed to be sure.
This being said, if they "fixed" it, at least it'd mean they're aware of having something to improve and actively working on it, so that's positive !
- Petty Bourgeoisie
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Re: La Religieuse
That looks just awful! It's bad teal on the level of Criterion's The Color of Pomegranates or Kino's Je T'aime Je T'aime.feckless boy wrote: ↑Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:23 amThe trailer for La Religieuse looks way too "tealy" to me. Granted it has been a few years since I saw an actual print, but that's not the way I remember It.
Are these technological workflow problems or conscious decisions?
- tenia
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
My understanding is that both standardised gradings are conscious decisions from the concerned laboratories.
The most popular theory is that Ritrovata have a Print Film Emulation LUT to try and get the end result to look like a theatrical projection of the films back then. In other words, they're willingly trying to emulate the look of a release print. The issue is that this doesn't seem to suit the fact they're doing this digitally from the OCN, making the end result incorrect. The other issue is that these movies now all look like they were shot with the same photography in mind, bearing more the laboratory signature than having the look of their DoP, film stock and lighting material, which seems crazy to me. I understand trying to give these movies a certain look, but surely, this shouldn't mean they all look similar in the end, no ?
The most popular theory is that Ritrovata have a Print Film Emulation LUT to try and get the end result to look like a theatrical projection of the films back then. In other words, they're willingly trying to emulate the look of a release print. The issue is that this doesn't seem to suit the fact they're doing this digitally from the OCN, making the end result incorrect. The other issue is that these movies now all look like they were shot with the same photography in mind, bearing more the laboratory signature than having the look of their DoP, film stock and lighting material, which seems crazy to me. I understand trying to give these movies a certain look, but surely, this shouldn't mean they all look similar in the end, no ?
- Petty Bourgeoisie
- Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:17 am
Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
Makes perfect sense to me. At the labs why can't they see the problem and then fix it when the problem is so obvious to all?tenia wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:36 amMy understanding is that both standardised gradings are conscious decisions from the concerned laboratories.
The most popular theory is that Ritrovata have a Print Film Emulation LUT to try and get the end result to look like a theatrical projection of the films back then. In other words, they're willingly trying to emulate the look of a release print. The issue is that this doesn't seem to suit the fact they're doing this digitally from the OCN, making the end result incorrect. The other issue is that these movies now all look like they were shot with the same photography in mind, bearing more the laboratory signature than having the look of their DoP, film stock and lighting material, which seems crazy to me. I understand trying to give these movies a certain look, but surely, this shouldn't mean they all look similar in the end, no ?
When I use EpsonScan on my computer to scan in old color photographs, there is a "color restoration" option. When that box is selected it immediately turns the image icy blue and/or teal. It is so obvious to me, that I use the color restoration feature exactly zero percent of the time! Why are these lab professionals no seeing that their work is incorrect? It's quite confounding and has been going on for several years. Maybe this issue will never get fixed.
- tenia
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
Without wanting to point fingers more precisely to some lab people, who remains nevertheless professionals, and should thus have reasons behind that, this might be to me the biggest question.
As I wrote many times, I'm not so much bothered byt the end result than the general standardisation of this result on so many movies that have never been said to have similar photographies. Out of any lack of references, or difficulties over doing the color corrections right (which is admittedly the most challenging part of a restoration due to the sum of possibilities), someone there should have wondered if giving the same general absolute look to all these movies was correct. And I mean, I have about 30 to 40 movies which now have the same kind of color tendencies. This is a lot.
I'm also particularly curious about how their outside references (directors, DoPs, etc) yet didn't prevent that, though James' observations on The Colour of Pomegranates and Camera Obscura's experience with them leads to me to believe they might have showed these people something that wasn't the very final result.
As I wrote many times, I'm not so much bothered byt the end result than the general standardisation of this result on so many movies that have never been said to have similar photographies. Out of any lack of references, or difficulties over doing the color corrections right (which is admittedly the most challenging part of a restoration due to the sum of possibilities), someone there should have wondered if giving the same general absolute look to all these movies was correct. And I mean, I have about 30 to 40 movies which now have the same kind of color tendencies. This is a lot.
I'm also particularly curious about how their outside references (directors, DoPs, etc) yet didn't prevent that, though James' observations on The Colour of Pomegranates and Camera Obscura's experience with them leads to me to believe they might have showed these people something that wasn't the very final result.
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- Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:49 am
Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
Well if the particular LUTs are applied after the restoration is otherwise complete, that would explain a lot of approvals that have been given by directors/DoPs etc to masters that have led to questionable blu ray releases.
- jsteffe
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:00 am
- Location: Atlanta, GA
Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
Tenia, that's essentially what I heard, too. In fact, if you look at the Pomegranates restoration with video scopes, the gain on the blue channel is reduced across the board and the entire channel is offset downward compared to the green and red. So it is more of a yellow push in general, but depending on the contents of specific shots green or teal may pop out.tenia wrote:My understanding is that both standardised gradings are conscious decisions from the concerned laboratories.
The most popular theory is that Ritrovata have a Print Film Emulation LUT to try and get the end result to look like a theatrical projection of the films back then. In other words, they're willingly trying to emulate the look of a release print. The issue is that this doesn't seem to suit the fact they're doing this digitally from the OCN, making the end result incorrect. The other issue is that these movies now all look like they were shot with the same photography in mind, bearing more the laboratory signature than having the look of their DoP, film stock and lighting material, which seems crazy to me. I understand trying to give these movies a certain look, but surely, this shouldn't mean they all look similar in the end, no ?
The end result is that the look of the film (as I have seen it projected multiple times with different prints in different venues) is not successfully translated into an all digital environment. And it was only intended for screening on DCP.
In any case, I will wait to see how the Rivette actually turned out.
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- senseabove
- Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:07 am
Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
I just saw a DCP of Backer's Falbalas with a StudioCanal intro (despite the listed source in the online program notes being Rialto...). Has there been any noise about it getting a release, since there was a string of other Becker releases from StudioCanal recently? I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
The DCP I saw needed some love—aside from jittering, dirt, scratches, and other flecks, for the second half of the movie, the frames before and after every cut jumped to the right and down respectively. I'm not the most knowledgeable about these things, but I swear the screening was originally listed as 35mm, so I wonder if the print fell through and, unable to find another, they screened the only source they could find: an unrestored DCP that StudioCanal is still working on for release?
The DCP I saw needed some love—aside from jittering, dirt, scratches, and other flecks, for the second half of the movie, the frames before and after every cut jumped to the right and down respectively. I'm not the most knowledgeable about these things, but I swear the screening was originally listed as 35mm, so I wonder if the print fell through and, unable to find another, they screened the only source they could find: an unrestored DCP that StudioCanal is still working on for release?
- L.A.
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 7:33 am
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
It seems the French Blu of Clouzot’s Quai des Orfèvres is no longer available(?). Some online stores still have it though like Fnac and Cultura but the shipping is quite high. Is there perhaps a third alternative that ships overseas and has decent shipping?
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
Why not just buy the UK Bluray?
- L.A.
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 7:33 am
- Location: Helsinki, Finland
Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
That is plan B. I would like the French one though.
Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
They are literally the same disc. When you put it in your player, you're given the option of French or English menus.
- Drucker
- Your Future our Drucker
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- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
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Re: Studio Canal/Kinowelt/Optimum
StudioCanal's new "restored" Producers Blu-ray gets soaked in piss-- one guess who did the resto