484, 1203 Chantal Akerman Masterpieces, 1968–1978

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foggy eyes
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Re: 484 Jeanne Dielman, 23 Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles

#126 Post by foggy eyes » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:02 pm

R0lf wrote:I think they just went for a walk around the block to get exercise after dinner.
That was my first thought too, but as no other events of the evening appear to be omitted it would mean that they go to bed awfully early...

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Matango
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Re: 484 Jeanne Dielman, 23 Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles

#127 Post by Matango » Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:55 pm

Maybe they went to watch TV through a store window :shock:

On a more serious note, the extras on disc 2 revealed something that I would never have realised. According to Akerman, JD had her first ever orgasm with John 2 and then another with John 3, and these were what set her off. How were we supposed to know that? I doubt even the Johns knew.

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Re: 484 Jeanne Dielman, 23 Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles

#128 Post by Ishmael » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:45 pm

Matango wrote:According to Akerman, JD had her first ever orgasm with John 2 and then another with John 3, and these were what set her off. How were we supposed to know that? I doubt even the Johns knew.
Actually, I figured she had an orgasm with John 3 (it's the only moment in the film where she looks to be experiencing pleasure). I immediately thought of the old phrase "when you start to come with the customers, it's time to get out of the game." I suppose that's as good a motivation as any for
SpoilerShow
the story's dramatic climax.

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Re: 484 Jeanne Dielman, 23 Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles

#129 Post by bearcuborg » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:37 am

Here is my submission for their cooking contest. http://www.vimeo.com/6803182

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Re: 484 Jeanne Dielman, 23 Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles

#130 Post by Tribe » Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:28 pm

Ishmael wrote: Actually, I figured she had an orgasm with John 3 (it's the only moment in the film where she looks to be experiencing pleasure). I immediately thought of the old phrase "when you start to come with the customers, it's time to get out of the game." I suppose that's as good a motivation as any for
SpoilerShow
the story's dramatic climax.
I thought this was so obvious to me it couldn't have been what Ackerman intended to convey to the viewer. But, since I'm not the only thinking this I'd go a step further and add that it's all the little things and domestic events that "go wrong" for her, break her routine, that allow her to get off with that last John. Anyone think I'm wrong on this?

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Re: 484 Jeanne Dielman, 23 Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles

#131 Post by Nothing » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:13 pm

-


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Re: 484 Jeanne Dielman, 23 Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles

#133 Post by colinr0380 » Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:24 pm

Spoilers:

I suppose that first off I should say that I thought it was extremely amusing and rather apt that these were the first static menu screens that I can remember there being on a Criterion disc for a good few years!

I managed to sit down with Jeanne Dielman over the weekend and thought it was a fascinating film, maybe a little flawed and confused in some parts but those ‘flaws’ only add to the interest. I was constantly struggling with the suggestion of verisimilitude of the drawn out sequences contrasted against a carefully structured, albeit extremely pared down, narrative that suggests that there was not an aim to destroy narrative, just use it in a different manner – to show the way that the most minor actions are filled with meaning and even emotion and perhaps that by skipping over what might seem to be the boring stuff other films miss the build up to the more exciting and dramatic actions, and in a way make them cruder (or understandable in a more limited, ‘outsider looking in’ manner) and more extreme by what they omit. Jeanne Dielman is as narrative as any dramatic film but it takes an actively contrarian approach to its subject, missing out the moments of action or interest in jump cuts - the deceptive elements that create only superficial feeling of ‘content’ or ‘progression’ until when finally those moments are shown they end up seeming too extreme and out of place in the film as much as household chores would seem out of place in another dramatic film.

I liked the oppressive feeling to the film – the weight of everyday life preventing anything but a glimmer of an inner life, or inner feelings for the characters. Those repeated camera positions with the slightest variation becoming an event in itself suggest both the comfort of the familiar with everything in its proper place but also the feeling of being trapped in a never ending routine of minor jobs just to keep in one place, let alone to progress in life.

There is a beauty though in that routine. Making a meal can on the one hand seem an exercise in futility in the way that it is such a transient event. The way the film follows the entire process of making the meal, eating it entirely and then clearing the dishes away (along with the washing up the next morning) because it encompasses the entire process sort of gives it that futility by showing how small and inconsequential an event it is. However that wonderful, though brief, moment when Jeanne perks up as her son comes home from the first time, along with the way she savours every drop of the soup and time with her son in that first meal, makes all the effort seem more than worth it.

It seems that this first day from the first to second client shows everything running smoothly and they way they are intended to, highlighting the changes and mistakes in routine that occur after the second client visits, eventually building to the explosion in the third client’s visit. I also think it was a neat idea to start the film with a bang, as Jeanne meets up with her client before the rest of her routine is established, and then we get the only nude scene as she cleans herself thoroughly after her encounter. It is interesting that this along with the final murder could be seen as bookending ‘extreme’ moments around a centre of superficial normality.

There always feels as if there is a threat of danger or disruption hanging over the film though, showing the film does concede to demands of narrative action or interest, even though it is done in the most low key way such as the string bag briefly catching on the beer bottles after the first shopping trip which builds with the milk threatening to spill (and which likely would if it had not been caught in time, unlike the beer bottles which just rock slightly) the next day. Personally I found the most tension in the film came from the proximity of the curtains next to the cooker – perhaps this is just my over paranoid modern day electric cooker perspective on this situation but I was waiting for either the curtain or the kitchen towels on the other side of the cooker to burst into flames every time Jeanne walked off leaving the cooker unattended!

I suppose as a kind of obsessive compulsive person myself I loved the way that the film emphasised the importance of rituals to give order and meaning to life. And the way they break down or fail Jeanne - the casual conversations with the lady dropping off her baby turns into the wordless dropping off and picking up the next day; the formal chat arranging the repair of her son’s shoes becomes the fruitless trek from shop to shop looking for a particular kind of button; the briskly efficient clerk turns into a struggle with the mechanised machine outside the closed post office (which reminded me a little of Richard Linklater’s It’s Impossible To Learn To Plow By Reading Books, where in his commentary near the end Linklater talks of wanting to capture the process of using these kinds of alienating, uncompromising machines)

Actually on that sequence in the post office where Jeanne is shown from the back preparing her letters I was reminded quite powerfully of events from my own life as a young kid watching my parents doing ‘grown up’ things such as watching them writing out cheques at the bank. Jeanne also seems framed from a child’s eye point of view in that scene, looking slightly up at her, and I wonder if this plays into the way that during this first day she seems authoritative and in charge of her own life and that she dictates the actions of the camera and the reasons for where the camera is placed where it is in the scenes, efficiently and crisply capturing the actions. During the second day the camera in its positioning and editing between shots seems to be capturing her fall from grace as it is there in readiness to capture the ‘correct’ action but Jeanne is making mistakes in her routine that leads to unexpected changes. It is interesting to think that the mise en scene is the factor in the film that creates not just a sense of unease but also a feeling of disappointment that its idol is not living up to expectations. Yet Jeanne is becoming more human – the ‘grown up’ actions are more our outsiders perspective, not just the perspective of the child idolising a grown up (without yet recognising that ‘grown up’ actions that suggest such freedom are slavish entrapping rituals in themselves) but also the audience looking to the lead character for guidance before realising that they have to in a way be a participant in the work themselves without looking for a surrogate character to live vicariously through. By the end of the film I think we are perhaps more distant from Jeanne but at the same time Jeanne is a fuller character by that point too – we’re not experiencing a murder as if we were doing it ourselves, but instead as compassionate observers of events, compassionate because of a kind of shared history that creates a connection.

Of course the event that sets things off kilter in the second day is the encounter with the second client. I thought it was interesting that in the extra features Ackerman says that it was Jeanne experiencing an orgasm for a first time with this client that leads to her carefully ordered life collapsing. I have to admit with just the flustered aftermath to judge from, I had initially just gone with an interpretation of a rather rough sexual encounter that had thrown her off balance. In a certain way though the ideas that came to mind from this more violent interpretation could apply in both circumstances – that perhaps the prospect of this weekly encounter having to be accommodated into her regular routine as well is what conspires to push her over the edge and to start contemplating her life again.

I like the way that the omissions become more associated with those elements that go to plan and therefore are missed by a mind distracted by other things – so the meal with the son that Jeanne seemed to be savouring every moment of (even if the son himself seems oblivious!) gets completely cut out of the second day. We see the involved preparations of the meal, including the most emotional potato peeling scene ever filmed (which I mean sincerely, since that and the scenes of going up to the flat in the lift show the character having moments of contemplation forced onto her instead of being able to keep mindlessly busy), which stands in stark contrast to the later problems with the taste of the coffee being pored over in excruciating detail.

It makes me think of the way that an extreme experience, good or bad, can sometimes be strong enough to throw you off balance for the rest of the day, and maybe even cause longer contemplation.

I also liked the way that the portrayal of the characters again seems to be consciously trying to play against expectations. For example we could be left with a negative image of the son when he asks for some extra money on the second day (but maybe we only feel that way because we have more of an inkling about what Jeanne has to do to earn that money, so feel more sensitive about it being frittered away), yet he does not ask for extra money the next day which could suggest that he is not a sponger and that it was just an isolated request. Similarly the baby that Jeanne looks after seems very quiet on the first visit so we may be upset at the way the child is just abandoned while she goes to sit alone in the kitchen, yet on the next visit when Jeanne is in need of some distraction and wants to play it cries its head off. It makes Jeanne seem more sympathetic as if she is trying to make contact for the first time but is rebuffed by the belligerent baby and is forced to retreat back to the kitchen and her sandwich. I was also left interested in the other female characters in the film (the sister in Canada, the woman she babysits for who we only hear, the female shopkeeper) – are all their lives as empty as Jeanne’s but disguised by banalities and rituals, or are we meant to consider Jeanne’s life as being an extreme version of reality, given that it includes prostitution?

One issue I think I might have with the film is the question of how long this routine has been going on for before the film begins. In a way, like the events that occur in the jump cuts, it affects how I would respond to the entire film and without some idea of the entire life of Jeanne I don’t know if I can properly judge the film as a success. To go back to the idea of the film attempting to encompass the totality of an event (of washing, cleaning, shopping or cooking), it seems impossible to properly judge the relationships between Jeanne and her world without seeing the rest of her life before and after these few days - as it stands it seems like content without context. If she was driven to breaking point by just three banal days would that be less acceptable, or lead to her being considered less sympathetic, than if she had been struggling in this role for years? Perhaps that is the central point of the film though – the impossibility of judging based firstly on the few moments of another’s life that we may be witness too, and then by the way we perceive what we see (or more importantly, the way we as observers feel while we are observing something that itself has an impact on the way we see the world). Does the particular address have a meaning that is lost on me that might affect my perspective if I knew about it? What does the flat being close to a street with a constant flashing light outside the window tell us about the social context of the mother and son? Or is it left sketchily opaque so that anything can be read into it depending on how we are feeling in ourselves at the time?

I wondered if there was a link to be made to Belle de Jour? Maybe Jeanne Dielman could be seen as the negative image of a moonlighting housewife, with the emphasis on the attempt to keep the façade of a normal world intact than on flights of fantasy even though both films focus on the emotional effects of such a lifestyle.

I also ended up thinking of a few contemporary films that I could relate to this one – for example The Atrocity Exhibition with its characters displaying compulsive behaviours (as the director says in the commentary track the act of walking in and out of rooms or absent mindedly picking up and object and putting it down suggests an inability to be ‘done’ with an action, like going back to make absolutely sure that the front door is locked when you leave the house, even though you are sure you locked the door!) made me wonder about actions being performed just to fill time. Is it worse to just sit and stare at the wall or to fill every moment of your waking day with mindless activity to distract from the pointlessness? Or is it just that one action is acceptable and another (in)action is not allowed because it too obviously shows a person feels troubled?

Irreversible also came to mind in the sense that it also involves a sexual encounter that leads to the ‘wrong’ person being killed as a final ironic punchline - though if we follow the Ackerman comment that it was Jeanne having another orgasm with this third client and not wanting it to become a regular thing that lead to her actions, perhaps it is related more due to the latent violence in seemingly ordinary relationships that is just waiting for the opportunity to find cathartic release.

I particularly thought of that episode of Alan Bennett’s Talking Heads series, A Lady of Letters with Patricia Routledge. Jeanne might end up in the same position of finding prison life to not be that much different from her usual routines (maybe down to the sexual interludes as a bartering tool!) and could maybe enjoy organising the prisoners with military efficiency or working in the canteen! I would perhaps disagree therefore with david hare's suggestion that this is a complete break with her way of life before the murder - in a way perhaps she can feel her ordered life about to change and stifles that upcoming change by retreating to a place where she knows there will be simple rules to follow without deviation - she destroys her life to retain security, when a really shocking break from the norm would have been to change the routine of her life without resorting to such a drastic action, maybe just by cancelling some of her clients (though we have already seen the consequences that follow from having a free hour in the day where nothing needs to be done, so maybe even that would not be a wise move!)

While I thought that final sustained shot was a perfect end to the film (with the pulsing of the sign outside that was so irritating early on in the film becoming almost rhythmically hypnotic and a perfect expression of Jeanne’s troubled, cyclic mindstate), I should also admit to being a little disappointed that Ackerman’s film did not end with a long methodical post-shower scene in Psycho clean up of the crime scene and corpse disposal sequence! :D

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Feego
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Re: 484 Jeanne Dielman, 23 Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles

#134 Post by Feego » Tue Oct 13, 2009 6:36 am

Does anyone know where I can find a high-res image of the original "Jeanne Dielman" poster? I've tried Google search, but the images that turned up were extremely low-res. And nothing turned up at all on various movie poster websites (not that I'm surprised).

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Jeff
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Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Akerman in the 70s

#135 Post by Jeff » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:54 pm

ECLIPSE SERIES 19: CHANTAL AKERMAN IN THE 70S

[img]http://criterion_production.s3.amazonaws.com/release_images/2509/AkermanBox_w128.jpg[/img]

La chambre

[img]http://criterion_production.s3.amazonaws.com/product_images/932/NYFilms_box_348x490_w100.jpg[/img]

In Chantal Akerman’s early short film La chambre, we see the furniture and clutter of one small room in an apartment become the subject of a moving still life—with Akerman herself staring back at us. This breakthrough formal experiment is the first film the director made in New York.

Hotel Monterey

[img]http://criterion_production.s3.amazonaws.com/product_images/932/NYFilms_box_348x490_w100.jpg[/img]

Under Chantal Akerman’s watchful eye, a cheap New York hotel glows with mystery and unexpected beauty, its corridors, elevators, rooms, windows, and occasional tenants framed as though part of an Edward Hopper tableau.

News from Home

[img]http://criterion_production.s3.amazonaws.com/product_images/932/NYFilms_box_348x490_w100.jpg[/img]

Akerman’s unforgettable time capsule of New York City in the 1970s is also a gorgeous meditation on urban alienation and personal and familial disconnection.

Je tu il elle

[img]http://criterion_production.s3.amazonaws.com/product_images/941/JeTuIllElle_box_348x490_w100.jpg[/img]

In her sexually provocative first feature, Chantal Akerman stars as a nameless, rootless young woman who leaves self-imposed isolation to embark on a road trip that leads to lonely love affairs.

Les rendez-vous d'Anna

[img]http://criterion_production.s3.amazonaws.com/product_images/944/Anna_box_348x490_w100.jpg[/img]

In one of Akerman’s most penetrating character studies, Anna, an accomplished filmmaker (played by Aurore Clément), makes her way through a series of anonymous European cities to promote her latest movie.

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domino harvey
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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Ackerman in the Seventies

#136 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:54 pm

Well, theirs will most surely have bonus materials/booklets/etc. Beautiful looking Eclipse though, maybe the best color scheme yet

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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#137 Post by Hail_Cesar » Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:58 pm

HerrSchreck wrote:I posted that image above... the question is (I never sprung for the PAL set) are these titles a dupe of what's on the R2 set?
Saute ma ville is missing in the eclipse set
Is it in Jeanne?

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Gregory
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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#138 Post by Gregory » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:02 pm

Hail_Cesar wrote:
HerrSchreck wrote:I posted that image above... the question is (I never sprung for the PAL set) are these titles a dupe of what's on the R2 set?
Saute ma ville is missing in the eclipse set
Is it in Jeanne?
Yes

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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Ackerman in the Seventies

#139 Post by GringoTex » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:13 pm

I sold my last 70s Akerman boxset from Belgium for $130 three days ago. :lol:

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domino harvey
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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Ackerman in the Seventies

#140 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:16 pm

My first thought was "Christ, my stupid Belgium set's in storage and now I'll never get rid of it"

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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Ackerman in the Seventies

#141 Post by hangman » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:18 pm

Well one advantage of the Eclipse, other than price, would be that it doesn't come in the cineart box which makes the packaging of this one even better. But yeah definitely curious as to how the MoC set will compare with the cineart release (I don't think the eclipse set counts much considering that it will be bare bones and MoC will definitely stack up on extras, even moreso considering the care they've given their boxset releases.)

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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Akerman in the 70s

#142 Post by Fiery Angel » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:03 pm

Luckily, I sold my Belgian set on Amazon for $150 a few months ago.

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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Ackerman in the Seventies

#143 Post by der_Artur » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:16 am

GringoTex wrote:I sold my last 70s Akerman boxset from Belgium for $130 three days ago. :lol:
I understand that it is good to make some money, but I don't understand what makes the eclipse set better than the Belgian one. The liner notes?

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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Akerman in the 70s

#144 Post by montgomery » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:36 am

If I may be totally presumptuous and speak for GringoTex, whom I don't know at all, his point was that if he had sold the box three days later, he wouldn't have gotten $130 for it. He probably couldn't even sell it. It doesn't imply that the Eclipse set is better, although I bet the buyer is pissed.

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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Akerman in the 70s

#145 Post by SoyCuba » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:48 am

Also worth noting is GringoTex's use of word 'last'. This would imply that he had bought, not one, but several copies of the Belgian boxset most propably for the very reason of being able to sell them for a higher price he had paid for them himself after the boxset had gone out of print.

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GringoTex
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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Akerman in the 70s

#146 Post by GringoTex » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:05 pm

montgomery wrote:If I may be totally presumptuous and speak for GringoTex, whom I don't know at all, his point was that if he had sold the box three days later, he wouldn't have gotten $130 for it. He probably couldn't even sell it. It doesn't imply that the Eclipse set is better, although I bet the buyer is pissed.
The set's going for 79.99 now. A couple of months ago they were selling for $220.
Last edited by GringoTex on Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'Forthcoming' Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.2

#147 Post by Wittsdream » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:44 pm

Hail_Cesar wrote:
HerrSchreck wrote:I posted that image above... the question is (I never sprung for the PAL set) are these titles a dupe of what's on the R2 set?
Saute ma ville is missing in the eclipse set
Is it in Jeanne?
Aside from containing every feature on the new Criterion Eclipse set + Jeanne Dielmann, here are a list of the extras contained on the R2 Belgian Set of the Chantal Akerman Collection (Les Annees 70):

-Interview with Chantal Akerman/Cinema de notre temps (17 min) [Repeated on Criterion Jeanne Dielmann release]
-Documentary on Akerman "The Auteur" (78 min) [Repeated on Criterion Jeanne Dielmann release]
-Saute ma Ville (Akerman short/13 min) [Repeated on Criterion Jeanne Dielmann release]
-La Chambre (Akerman short/11 min) [Also on Eclipse set]
-Interview with Babette Mangolte (Akerman's cinematographer on 3 features/32 min) [Repeated on Criterion Jeanne Dielmann release]
-Interview with Natalie Akerman (Akerman's mother/27 min) [Repeated on Criterion Jeanne Dielmann release]
-Interview with Aurore Clement (18 min) NOT ON ANY CRITERION RELEASE

So, it seems the only thing not available through Criterion (Eclipse set + Jeanne Dielmann) would be the interview with Aurore Clement. And conversely, the Criterion Jeanne Dielmann release has an interview with Delphine Seyrig, and booklet containing interviews with scholars Ivone Margulies and Janet Bergstrom, not available in the Belgian box.

If you already have the Belgian Akerman box, normally it wouldn't make sense to double dip on the Eclipse set, but there are a few reasons to consider it:

1) The already mentioned added bonuses from the Criterion Jeanne Dielmann release not available in the Belgian box.
2) A potentially better English subtitle translation of the feature films.
3) There is a discrepancy in the running times for 3 of the 4 features in these sets (Hotel Monterey, Je Tu Il Elle and Les Rendez-vous D'Anna are all around 4-5 minutes longer on the Eclipse set than they are on the Belgian set, while curiously the News from Home running time is the same in both sets). Also, the running times for Jeanne Dielmann are different as well (Criterion - 201 minutes/R2 Belgian set - 197 min). One would presume the discrepancy is due to 4% PAL speedup in some of these releases, which would mean the Eclipse set is taken from a non-PAL source, therefore not converted.

The R2 set looks quite good, and stands a decent chance of trumping the upcoming Eclipse set in image quality based solely on the differences between PAL & NTSC resolutions, but die-hard Akerman completists may find it worth upgrading to the Eclipse set when it is released, along with owning Criterion's Jeanne Dielmann. I dunno! :-k

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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Akerman in the 70s

#148 Post by backstreetsbackalright » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:51 pm

I'm thrilled that these are finally getting released. Although I'm also very content with my Belgian boxed set. I guess I'll wait until these actually hit the streets, to gather more info on the differences (if any), and also in hopes that we know more about Masters of Cinema's plans.

As an aside, D'est has just come out on commercially-available DVD as well, which is quite exciting. I'm optimistic that we'll also see From The Other Side and South some day in the not-too-far-off future.

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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Akerman in the 70s

#149 Post by Oedipax » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:11 pm

backstreetsbackalright wrote:As an aside, D'est has just come out on commercially-available DVD as well, which is quite exciting. I'm optimistic that we'll also see From The Other Side and South some day in the not-too-far-off future.
Has anyone actually found D'est in stock for order anywhere?

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Gregory
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Re: Eclipse Series 19: Chantal Akerman in the 70s

#150 Post by Gregory » Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:47 pm

Oedipax wrote:
backstreetsbackalright wrote:As an aside, D'est has just come out on commercially-available DVD as well, which is quite exciting. I'm optimistic that we'll also see From The Other Side and South some day in the not-too-far-off future.
Has anyone actually found D'est in stock for order anywhere?
I'm continuing this discussion in the Chantal Akerman on DVD thread.

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