374 Bicycle Thieves
- skuhn8
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 4:46 pm
- Location: Chico, CA
No one is debating which is better... but 'vast improvement' would certainly be the point of discussion. I wonder how many people double-dip after squinting at a comparison on Beaver and noticing an ever so slight improvement in one over the other, not realising that the difference in a freeze frame comparison rarely plays out when in motion. Don't get me wrong. I always study Beaver before making a purchase, but have come to realize how dramatic the difference needs to be to actually notice it in motion.kinjitsu wrote:I think it's clear from Gary's caps which of the two is the better transfer. While it may be windowboxed, the Criterion seems a vast improvement over the Image disc, so I'm not the least bit sorry to have passed it along.
That said, I'd love to see some forum members take the Pepsi challenge with the CC vs. the Image (or the Arrow) in motion and be able call it.
Of course, if I didn't have the Image I'd jump all over this...I still probably will one of these days when I've got some extra Washingtons lying about, as it's impossible to have too much Bicycle Thieves on the shelf.
- Tribe
- The Bastard Spawn of Hank Williams
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:59 pm
- Location: Toledo, Ohio
- Contact:
I agree with Schrek that the CC isn't a "vast improvement" over the Image... not like the new Seven Samurai CC edition over the first CC. But I find the improvement to be nonetheless noticeable....the CC appears to be cleaner, grainier, a nicer range of gray tones.skuhn8 wrote:That said, I'd love to see some forum members take the Pepsi challenge with the CC vs. the Image (or the Arrow) in motion and be able call it.
Tribe
- kinjitsu
- Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:39 pm
- Location: Uffa!
No argument intended, just stating the obvious. My memory of the Image disc is fairly recent since did I managed to watch it prior to letting it go, and in motion, I can safely say that the Criterion is another experience entirely. And per HerrSchreck's comments regarding the subtitle translation, I will pay more attention the next time around. Capisce?skuhn8 wrote:No one is debating which is better...
- TheGodfather
- Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:39 pm
- Location: The Netherlands
I agree. I think the image quality on the Criterion is better than the one on the Arrow films disc (wich I also own). The design is gorgeous, the booklet is great.jt wrote:Are people really not happy with this?
I appreciate that the image is only a slight improvement over the previous versions but as has been mentioned, they were in pretty good shape to begin with.
Short of adding a commentary (and of course, not picture-boxing) I'm not sure what more CC could have done.
The box and artwork are splendid, the book is exemplary and the extras are informative and interesting.
I for one am a happy camper.
Excellent release, a must-own in my book.
- daniel p
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:01 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
You truly think the difference between the image on the old Image & new CC BTHIEVES is as huge as the old & new CC SEVEN SAMURAI?jt wrote:I agree with this statement but unless there is a version I am unaware of, it looks like my Arrow Films was the disc to beat. I've upgraded from good picture to very good, no booklet to excellent weighty booklet, one meaty doc to three meaty docs and bog-standard box to lovely digipac.HerrSchreck wrote:I could imagine someone who didn't previously own the film being completely and duly overwhelmed.
Minus a commentary, that sounds like a comparable upgrade to the Seven Samurai one.
And Schreck, I haven't seen the Image disc. Would you consider the subs enough of an improvement over the CC to warrant getting hold of a copy on the cheap?
Folks all I'm saying is that the improvement in image quality isn't as mindblowing as is usual-- perhaps this is testament to the state of the elements rather than any "laziness" on CC's part. One look at the cropping, and the similar contrast & sharpness between the releases (yes there are unusual caps containing chroma noise which I didn't notice on my monitor or in the rest of the caps) screams this obvious fact. It's just an observation, not an "attack" on the release. Of COURSE the CC is the superior release, all things considered. But for a fanatical student of the film like me, the lack of a commentary, the lack of targeting of the docs to the film specifically are a slight bit of a letdown. The 7-SAM had the ITS WONDERFUL TO... doc, plus the magnificent original CC doc about the film's sources & inspirations, and that crown jewel of a roundtable commentary-- all of which educated one specifically about the film itself.. not, say, the jidai geki in general. (The 7 SAM well has a booklet equal to the BTHIEVES booklet).
It's still a good release, but the classic blatant hugeness of the Criterion image upgrade, for whatever reason, just isn't there.
As to the translation, I probably wouldn't reccommend buying the Image disc specifically for that-- not unless you're a total fanatic for the film. The CC is far more complete in it's subtitling... just the usages in some cases aren't as appropriately acidicly humorous as folks bust on each other with that old fashioned Italian cranky harried humor.
- jt
- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:47 am
- Location: zurich
No, I didn't own the original CC, I had the bfi. But you're right, it's clear that the image improvement for 7Sam was greater than that for BTheives. But does anyone know for certain that it would even be possible to make such a large improvement over the already decent alternative copies?HerrSchreck wrote:You truly think the difference between the image on the old Image & new CC BTHIEVES is as huge as the old & new CC SEVEN SAMURAI?
I think we might be going round in circles here HerrSchreck, we clearly both love the film and think that the package is very good, if not quite as good as the 7Sam package was.
My point would be that I'm not going to let myself get disappointed if future releases don't match up to the 7Sam re-release, which is quite possibly the best dvd package of a single film ever made.
If CC release one film package a year of 7Sam quality and another half a dozen as good as BTheives, I'll still be happy. Maybe I'm less demanding than some, or maybe I don't have enough time to watch comprehensive extras/ commentaries for every disc.
Cheers for that, I probably won't bother.As to the translation, I probably wouldn't reccommend buying the Image disc specifically for that-- not unless you're a total fanatic for the film. The CC is far more complete in it's subtitling... just the usages in some cases aren't as appropriately acidicly humorous as folks bust on each other with that old fashioned Italian cranky harried humor.
- TheGodfather
- Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:39 pm
- Location: The Netherlands
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- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:27 pm
- Location: London, UK
Why does this film need a commentary? As filmed entertainment it's as self-explanatory as it gets. I don't understand the fetishism for someone else talking over the top of the film simply for the sake of it. There's analysis and contextualisation galore in the accompanying booklet, plus I imagine in the documentaries on disc two. Why isn't that enough?Anthony wrote:If only it wasn't windowboxed and included a commentary from a De Sica scholar. Then it would have been perfect. But sadly, we can only dream of what could have been.
- Tribe
- The Bastard Spawn of Hank Williams
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:59 pm
- Location: Toledo, Ohio
- Contact:
Mark Shiel's doc on Italian neorealism is as good of an introduction to a film movement as I've seen. I can't judge how exhaustive or accurate it is, but I found it very, very informative.Narshty wrote:There's analysis and contextualisation galore in the accompanying booklet, plus I imagine in the documentaries on disc two. Why isn't that enough?
Tribe
- TheRanchHand
- Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:18 am
- Location: Los Angeles
I agree that we have become so jaded by extras (remember when it was just extra-free VHS?) that we now complain or even get pissed(!) when a commentary is missing. I love a GOOD commentary on favorite films, but am just glad to get nice transfers with a few goodies. I haven't picked this one up yet but will tomorrow.
- Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
- Location: New England
- Contact:
- Der Müde Tod
- Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:50 am
I don't know whether that qualifies as a glitch, but picture and audio are noticeably out of sync in the second part of the confrontation scene (16), approximately 1h 12min 55sec into the film. The lip movement is ahead of the sound. It might have been on the source material, but I doubt Criterion can claim this has been intended by the director.
- Anthony
- Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:38 pm
- Location: Berkeley, CA
Has anyone written to Criterion yet to inquire if this is a DVD authoring mistake, or inherent mistake in the source material?Der Müde Tod wrote:I don't know whether that qualifies as a glitch, but picture and audio are noticeably out of sync in the second part of the confrontation scene (16), approximately 1h 12min 55sec into the film. The lip movement is ahead of the sound. It might have been on the source material, but I doubt Criterion can claim this has been intended by the director.
- colinr0380
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK
DVD Times review.
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
That's the film. Very little of the sound was recorded on set. You can pay close attention and find moments of glaring mis-synching throughout, having nothing to do with the transfer.Der Müde Tod wrote:I don't know whether that qualifies as a glitch, but picture and audio are noticeably out of sync in the second part of the confrontation scene (16), approximately 1h 12min 55sec into the film. The lip movement is ahead of the sound. It might have been on the source material, but I doubt Criterion can claim this has been intended by the director.
- arsonfilms
- Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:53 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
- Contact:
The review on DVD Talk mentioned that the Italian tendency to record audio and picture apart from each other is explained in the documentary on neorealism. Sadly though, the reviewer doesn't explain it himself and I haven't watched the doc, so I can't be much help, but Orson Welles was a fan of the technique as it allowed him to re-write whole scenes after he'd filmed them, and then perform every damn character in a movie. I think I mentioned once when Mr. Arkadin came out that you can tell the scenes Welles approved of if the supporting characters are out of sync and don't sound like the actors you see.
- thethirdman
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 4:26 pm
Dubbing in Italian Cinema ThreadDer Müde Tod wrote:I don't know whether that qualifies as a glitch, but picture and audio are noticeably out of sync in the second part of the confrontation scene (16), approximately 1h 12min 55sec into the film. The lip movement is ahead of the sound. It might have been on the source material, but I doubt Criterion can claim this has been intended by the director.
- BusterK.
- Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:44 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec
Come on, let's be reasonable here, who cares about a fucking commentary? This is the finest transfer of this masterpiece available in the world, and yet, there are still complaints...Anthony wrote:If only it wasn't windowboxed and included a commentary from a De Sica scholar. Then it would have been perfect. But sadly, we can only dream of what could have been...
I'm just very glad to own this beautiful dvd with a very accurate translation. I'm willing to bet this movie won't look any better for at least a decade.
- Matango
- Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:19 am
- Location: Hong Kong
- Gigi M.
- Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:09 pm
- Location: Santo Domingo, Dominican Rep
Then, don't push it too hard. You might not get shit the next time. This is an excellent release all around. Don't like it, don't buy it.Matango wrote:We could have said that about the Image release a month ago.
That's part of the reason we're here, to push for better releases.
Last edited by Gigi M. on Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- arsonfilms
- Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:53 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
- Contact:
I have to agree. We really seem to be getting into equine oral analysis on this release, and judging by the quality of what we got, I'm having a hard time figuring out why. I like commentaries as much as the next guy, but I'm amazed by the degree to which they seem to be fetishized around here. If the commentary is a good one, I'm thrilled to have it, but if they couldn't really find anyone they liked, I'd rather Criterion not try to force the issue. Has anyone read the book? It's great! The image is great! The features seem great! So what are we all complaining about?Gigi M. wrote:Then, don't push it too hard. You might not get shit. This is an excellent release all around. Don't like it, don't buy it.Matango wrote:We could have said that about the Image release a month ago.
That's part of the reason we're here, to push for better releases.