374 Bicycle Thieves
- aox
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:02 pm
- Location: nYc
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
Glad you liked the film, but damn... every time I see someone bump an ignored old thread of a great film I get secretly gleeful that it might be a Blu Ray announcement. It's mostly disappointing...obviously.
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- Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:50 pm
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
I viewed Bicycle Thieves years ago and have not viewed the Criterion release.
From what I remember, this film left me heartbroken. Happy, but heartbroken. On the surface, this film is a simple story of the deep love a man has not just for his family, but more importantly, his son. The film sees the transformation of the father, whose name nows escapes me, from a down-on-his-luck-and-out-of-work man to one seeing that life may just right itself to finally being crushed by society in front of his son. Heartbreak is encapsulated, as seen in the last frames, by the mad rush of people walking in the opposite direction of the pair.
With Father's Day approaching, this film seems more poignant now than at any other time. That this man had to resort to the lows he did to seek a better future for his son speaks of a deep love. One can argue that subjecting his son to those actions makes him a weaker or irresponsible man. Perhaps. But the film may be more an indictment of a society that forces a man to these depths than of the man himself.
From what I remember, this film left me heartbroken. Happy, but heartbroken. On the surface, this film is a simple story of the deep love a man has not just for his family, but more importantly, his son. The film sees the transformation of the father, whose name nows escapes me, from a down-on-his-luck-and-out-of-work man to one seeing that life may just right itself to finally being crushed by society in front of his son. Heartbreak is encapsulated, as seen in the last frames, by the mad rush of people walking in the opposite direction of the pair.
With Father's Day approaching, this film seems more poignant now than at any other time. That this man had to resort to the lows he did to seek a better future for his son speaks of a deep love. One can argue that subjecting his son to those actions makes him a weaker or irresponsible man. Perhaps. But the film may be more an indictment of a society that forces a man to these depths than of the man himself.
- Michael
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:09 pm
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
I've been up and down the decent range of the Italian cinema many times throughout my long life of viewing films - Antonioni, Fellini, Olmi, DeSica, Visconti, Lattuada, Pasolini, Germi, Argento, Bertolucci, Leone, Lenzi, Bellocchio, Fulci, Moretti, Sorrentino, Amelio, Bava, etc. I'm now fully contented to say that The Bicycle Thieves is the shining zenith of the Italian cinema, if not the world cinema. Since revisiting the film a couple of weeks ago, it keeps blooming in my heart and mind - a few new petals a day. New ideas, new themes, new feelings. It's such a richly layered, poetic and engimatic film, despite its simplicity. The images burn through - the lone bicycle leaning against a cracked wall glistening silvery in the Roman sun; the smell and sound of an unexpected afternoon rain; the sad rhythym of a boy tripping over stone roads; the first bite of a mozzarella en corozza or that gulp of chilled pinot grigio!; a once-proud hat now crushed inside a fist; the strange nearly faceless whores; the rows and rows of butchered bicycles and their bones, tissues and organs spilling out and stacking; the haunting posture of a rich boy feasting with his happy family; the old-soul eyes of a boy and his warm hands.
The Bicycle Thieves is the most devastatingly humane film I've ever seen and felt. DeSica's tenderness and love for his characters are deeply felt and etched in every dust of the film. Thieves, whores, and pedophiles roam his world and he doesn't judge them a bit. He leaves up to us to take them for what they are. Simply genius.
As the father and his son walk disappearing into the crowd of people, all of us become them. We are bicycle thieves. In a bad time, we would steal a bike if it takes to feed our family.
The Bicycle Thieves is the most devastatingly humane film I've ever seen and felt. DeSica's tenderness and love for his characters are deeply felt and etched in every dust of the film. Thieves, whores, and pedophiles roam his world and he doesn't judge them a bit. He leaves up to us to take them for what they are. Simply genius.
As the father and his son walk disappearing into the crowd of people, all of us become them. We are bicycle thieves. In a bad time, we would steal a bike if it takes to feed our family.
- Michael
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:09 pm
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
Just found this interesting article published in 1950. It details the background of the actor who played the dad Antonio.
- Antoine Doinel
- Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:22 pm
- Location: Montreal, Quebec
- Contact:
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
Just have a quick question regarding the subtitles. I saw a print of the film last night, and while the theater had the poster claiming it was a restored print for the 60th anniversary, it was fairly obvious the print was a much older. That said, there were good chunks of the film, though unimportant to the actual plot, where there were no subtitles at all. The one example I can think of right away is the scene where Antonio meets Baiocco during his rehearsal. While Antonio recounts what has happened to his bicycle, Baiocco is interrupted by the players on the stage and they exchange words. These aren't subtitled. There are other small scenes like that throughout the film, where I found this happening. Does the new Criterion DVD offer "expanded" subtitles? I know that it's common for not every line of dialogue to be subtitled, but it seemed with this film, it was a little more than usual.
- Sloper
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:06 pm
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
Just checked my disc, and the exchange you refer to is subtitled - one of my favourite scenes in the film. That song (specifically the 'gente'/'gente' bit) is perpetually stuck in my head.
In general, as usual, Criterion's subs seem as full and accurate as could reasonably be expected, to the point of being rather cold and un-poetic at times. They're catering for scholars and students, whereas I guess some prints that get shown in cinemas are subbed with a more casual audience in mind.
In general, as usual, Criterion's subs seem as full and accurate as could reasonably be expected, to the point of being rather cold and un-poetic at times. They're catering for scholars and students, whereas I guess some prints that get shown in cinemas are subbed with a more casual audience in mind.
- HerrSchreck
- Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:46 am
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
Absolutely-- I've mentioned that already.. the difference between the CC subs and how they can be a bit dry and lose a bit of the red pepper in the exchanges between individuals.
- aox
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:02 pm
- Location: nYc
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
this is playing this weekend here in NYC at Cinema Village
- Michael
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:09 pm
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
The Bicycle Thieves is Leonaro DiCaprio's #1 favorite film. And so is mine. I really love this film and Il posto so much.
- dad1153
- Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:32 am
- Location: New York, NY
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
Saw "The Bicycle Thieves" Sunday night on Criterion DVD after coming back from a theatrical showing of "Kick-Ass" (don't ask! ). The last five minutes of "The Bicycle Thieves" are some of the most heart-breaking and wrenching scenes I've ever seen in cinema (though De Sica's "Umberto D" made me cry more), the ultimate 'screw you' to Hollywood's 'happy ending' movie formula (which is driven home earlier with the Rita Hayworth posters). Enzo Staiola gives one heck of a genuine and convincing child performance; he and co-star Lamberto Maggiorani practically achieve co-star status as the movie unfolds. The close-ups of Bruno sell the desperation of the situation his father finds himself in, and the backdrop of post-WWII Italy opens the movie to welcomed (but unnecessary for its enjoyment) analysis of the socio-economical symbolism of the characters and story. Loved the scenes at the restaurant and when Antonio seeks the help of his singing friend to look for his stolen bike in the middle of a political meeting plotting a future that would take care of poor people like him (dreamy theory contrasted with then-pressing hardship reality) but the crowds keep pushing him out. Didn't even notice the man that gave Antonio his bicycle job was at that political meeting. Melodrama is certainly an easy way to describe this flick but the emotional pathos it achieves isn't earned with cheap manipulative tricks but the oldest trick in the cinema: keeping things simple and easy-enough to follow.
Much more humane and universal than what its title implies, "The Bicycle Thieves" is a universal father-son story that is unashamed of being what it is. Having grown in Central America I can see now the influence that De Sica's movies and the Italian neorealist movement in general had on Mexican cinema/TV (particularly the still wildly popular late 40's/early 50's Pedro Infante movies like "Pepe El Toro"), which were piped through Spanish-speaking Latin America for decades and shaped generations of movie/TV watchers. Haven't seen the documentaries (got the disc from the NYC Public library which didn't include the bonus disc) but it's hard to believe that it took until spine 374 to get this movie into the collection; it's one of those titles you assume has been Criterion since forever but just got added a few years back.
Much more humane and universal than what its title implies, "The Bicycle Thieves" is a universal father-son story that is unashamed of being what it is. Having grown in Central America I can see now the influence that De Sica's movies and the Italian neorealist movement in general had on Mexican cinema/TV (particularly the still wildly popular late 40's/early 50's Pedro Infante movies like "Pepe El Toro"), which were piped through Spanish-speaking Latin America for decades and shaped generations of movie/TV watchers. Haven't seen the documentaries (got the disc from the NYC Public library which didn't include the bonus disc) but it's hard to believe that it took until spine 374 to get this movie into the collection; it's one of those titles you assume has been Criterion since forever but just got added a few years back.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
- AtlantaFella
- Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:19 pm
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
Thank you, that first photo is priceless. I may just post it to my Facebook wall and unfriend anyone who doesn't get it.domino harvey wrote:Passive Aggressive reference
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- Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:33 am
Re: 374 Bicycle Thieves
Number 2 had me laughing hard. I suddenly feel like revisiting Bicycle Thief now.domino harvey wrote:Passive Aggressive reference
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
Bicycle Thieves finally got corrected in the US when Criterion took it up a few years ago.
But I wonder when someone's going to have a go at tackling The 400 Blows? Or is that meaninglessly literal English rendition of a specific French idiom too indelible a part of film history?
(It reminds me of the French subtitle adorning the title of Jerzy Skolimowski's Moonlighting at its Cannes premiere - Au clair de la lune).
But I wonder when someone's going to have a go at tackling The 400 Blows? Or is that meaninglessly literal English rendition of a specific French idiom too indelible a part of film history?
(It reminds me of the French subtitle adorning the title of Jerzy Skolimowski's Moonlighting at its Cannes premiere - Au clair de la lune).
- ellipsis7
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:56 pm
- Location: Dublin
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
Even this is not a strictly correct translation of the Italian title LADRI DI BICICLETTE, which literally means THIEVES OF BICYCLES, i.e. 2 plurals encompassing the multiplicity of acts including the original robbery of the father's bike, and the later abortive attempt by the father to take a bike himself, and all the many other similar crimes in Rome at the same time... This reading of the title is also talked about in the BFI Classic BICYCLE THIEVES by Robert S. C. Gordon, which however reverts in its book title to the English friendly version which is easier to the eye and ear ...MichaelB wrote:Bicycle Thieves finally got corrected in the US when Criterion took it up a few years ago.
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- Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:49 pm
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
The absolute most idiotic is Pleasure Party as a translation of Chabrol's Une partie de plaisir.
- TMDaines
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm
- Location: Stretford, Manchester
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
That's partly true but also a little misunderstanding the Italian language. The only way of forming the possessive in Italian is possessed object di possesser. So in Italian a distinction between "Bicycle Thieves" and "Thieves of Bicycles" isn't really possible. Now really "Bicycle Thieves" isn't even a true possessive (as opposed to Bicycles' Thieves) but that's how we in English would express this relationship where one thing isn't really possessing the other. I think "Bicycle Thieves" is just as fine a title as "Thieves of Bicycles" in striking that balance in being true to the original but also sounding native in the target language.ellipsis7 wrote:Even this is not a strictly correct translation of the Italian title LADRI DI BICICLETTE, which literally means THIEVES OF BICYCLES, i.e. 2 plurals encompassing the multiplicity of acts including the original robbery of the father's bike, and the later abortive attempt by the father to take a bike himself, and all the many other similar crimes in Rome at the same time... This reading of the title is also talked about in the BFI Classic BICYCLE THIEVES by Robert S. C. Gordon, which however reverts in its book title to the English friendly version which is easier to the eye and ear ...MichaelB wrote:Bicycle Thieves finally got corrected in the US when Criterion took it up a few years ago.
- MichaelB
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
- Location: Worthing
- Contact:
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
I actually thought about discussing this linguistic conundrum in the booklet essay I wrote for Arrow Academy's Bicycle Thieves, but my Italian isn't good enough to speak with any great authority, and I didn't want to simply echo (or indeed plagiarise) Robert Gordon.
As you say, the challenge is to come up with something that's both an accurate translation of the original, and something that sounds idiomatically correct in English. I read a festival report from the early 1970s that referred to Bergman's Whisperings and Cries, which I assume is a literal translation of Viskningar och rop. This could just about work in English (as could Thieves of Bicycles), but it sounds clunky - like a translation, in fact.
Bicycle Thieves is arguably the best idiomatic English rendition of Ladri di biciclette because it admits the possibility that there might be more than one bicycle, while confirming for certain that there's more than one thief. And the latter is the really crucial point that the old US translation The Bicycle Thief completely misses - I think most people would take it as read that more than one thief would steal more than one bicycle.
As you say, the challenge is to come up with something that's both an accurate translation of the original, and something that sounds idiomatically correct in English. I read a festival report from the early 1970s that referred to Bergman's Whisperings and Cries, which I assume is a literal translation of Viskningar och rop. This could just about work in English (as could Thieves of Bicycles), but it sounds clunky - like a translation, in fact.
Bicycle Thieves is arguably the best idiomatic English rendition of Ladri di biciclette because it admits the possibility that there might be more than one bicycle, while confirming for certain that there's more than one thief. And the latter is the really crucial point that the old US translation The Bicycle Thief completely misses - I think most people would take it as read that more than one thief would steal more than one bicycle.
- ellipsis7
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 1:56 pm
- Location: Dublin
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
Absolutely right, TMD, re. the difference in construction of the Italian possessive to English... I'm picking this up at present in my own Italian studies...
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
Exactly. Does any native speaker understand from "Bicycle Thieves" that only one bicycle is stolen by multiple people? It's like talking about a union of truck drivers - do you really imagine that the thousands of members all share the same truck? "Bicycles' Thieves" is grotesquely unidiomatic.MichaelB wrote:Bicycle Thieves is arguably the best idiomatic English rendition of Ladri di biciclette because it admits the possibility that there might be more than one bicycle, while confirming for certain that there's more than one thief. And the latter is the really crucial point that the old US translation The Bicycle Thief completely misses - I think most people would take it as read that more than one thief would steal more than one bicycle.
Back on topic, I was very pleased to see MoC correct the mistranslation of the Pasolini title, since the original title is extremely pointed and significant. That pointed point was pointed out to me nearly a quarter of a century ago, and every time I've seen the mistake perpetuated since it's irked me.
- domino harvey
- Dot Com Dom
- Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
Too Many Thieves, Not Enough Bicycles
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
Is that the Frank Tashlin remake?
- Der Spieler
- Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:05 am
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
I'm happy to see someone bring this up. I'm French and I always found the English title totally insignificant.MichaelB wrote:But I wonder when someone's going to have a go at tackling The 400 Blows? Or is that meaninglessly literal English rendition of a specific French idiom too indelible a part of film history?.
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
You can get away with correcting the translation when it's only slight so that the revised title is still instantly recognizable to those only familiar with the incorrect one. If you changed The 400 Blows to something more accurate, like, I dunno, Breaking Bad: The Movie, this would lead to mass confusion and likely precipitate the end of the world.
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: BD 33 The Gospel According to Matthew
And presumably you want to reach, at the very least, the people who desperately want to purchase on DVD / BluRay the film you are releasing. If you've got a release strategy that will tend to exclude that absolute core market, all the linguistic purity in the world won't prevent you from being an idiot.