11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

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mfunk9786
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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#151 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:15 pm

Criterion will likely be able to replace your disc if you have an issue, you'd just need to e-mail them at mulvaney@criterion.com and/or orders@criterion.com. I'd say go ahead and buy it (although you may want to buy the releases separately so you can get the newer release of The Seventh Seal anyway) and sort out any possible issues later.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#152 Post by Ubermensch » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:48 am

Yep, this set is really good for a beginner of Bergman. And I know Criterion will replace the disc if you tell them. But I am quite disappointed at how they have handled this blunder so far. They should have retrieved all the wrong sets from the very first but not rely on us who discover the problem and demand them for replacements. I even can't see any warning about the problem on their website. I wonder most of the people who bought this set might just not notice the wrong disc at all. Even some of those who did might feel too troublesome to bother them again. That have saved Criterion a lot of trouble but they have been really risking their precious reputation.

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zedz
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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#153 Post by zedz » Fri Jul 27, 2012 4:13 pm

Wait a minute - you're complaining bitterly about Criterion's shabby behaviour when you've had no actual problem with them and you have no evidence whatsoever that this entire problem wasn't completely cleared up years ago?

Production gaffes like this happen all the time. Responsible companies do their best to sort them out, and it looks like that's exactly what happened in this case, but you're still pissing and moaning even though, for all you know, there is a 0% chance of you picking up a faulty set?

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#154 Post by giovannii84 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:48 am

I was wondering if someone could explain the Restoration Demonstration, which appears on the original criterion DVD.
How long is it, does it have narration and is it a short documentary (similar to the one on 'Beauty & the Beast') or is it a series of clips (similar to the one on 'Grand Illusion')?

Also is 'Bergman 101' the same filmography which appears on the original Criterion DVD release?

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#155 Post by cdnchris » Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:49 pm

The original DVDs restoration demonstration runs over 3-minutes (3:20) and compares the new restoration and transfer to what was found on Criterion's laserdisc. It's text notes mixed in with before-and-after video footage and comparisons.

The Bergman 101 feature was originally a multimedia essay (as they used to call it) put together by Cowie. It was set up as a gallery with text notes, stills, and then video footage. The new version updates it to a visual essay with Cowie narration in place of text and he covers the same information. He also updates it to mention his work since 1987 (when Cowie did the original essay) which includes up to Saraband.

Hope that helps.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#156 Post by zedz » Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:57 pm

The big point of interest with the 'Bergman 101' feature for a very long time was that it illustrated the different films with either stills or brief film clips. The film clips all came from movies Criterion released within a few years, except for The Magician, which didn't arrive until the BluRay era. Which probably made it the longest gap between absolute confirmation that Criterion had rights (and materials) for a title and release.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#157 Post by Zot! » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:14 pm

zedz wrote:The big point of interest with the 'Bergman 101' feature for a very long time was that it illustrated the different films with either stills or brief film clips. The film clips all came from movies Criterion released within a few years, except for The Magician, which didn't arrive until the BluRay era. Which probably made it the longest gap between absolute confirmation that Criterion had rights (and materials) for a title and release.
There was a Criterion Laserdisc of Magician.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#158 Post by cdnchris » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:16 pm

I had been waiting a long time for The Magician (on DVD) because of that special feature on the original Seventh Seal DVD, but it never materialized so I believe I got the idea MGM had it and that's why Criterion never released it. I'm still not sure why they waited but it was worth it because based on the video quality of the film in that feature it was in need of a lot of work.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#159 Post by zedz » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:18 pm

Okay, ". . . and DVD release."

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#160 Post by Graham » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:44 am

I've just tried to watch the blu-ray of The Seventh Seal for the first time after owning it for three years or so. Everything was fine until 1hr and 23mins in when Block is playing chess with Death in the forest and it freezes. I've tried cleaning the disc, fast-forwarding it etc, but the fault appears to continue until the end (if you do manage to forward a chapter it auto freezes again).

Is this a known issue? Looks like I'll be firing off an email to Criterion, but thought I'd ask here first. Thanks.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#161 Post by Matt » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:13 am

No trouble with mine.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#162 Post by tenia » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:36 pm

No problem with mine either.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#163 Post by Zot! » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:42 pm

I have problems with a couple of early Criterions. I suspect it's my player.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#164 Post by Graham » Sun Jul 28, 2013 4:33 am

Thanks for the replies. I fired off an email to Criterion, so we'll see what happens.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#165 Post by Kris » Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:01 pm

Graham, any news concerning the issue? I rewatched the movie after two years or so - back then I had a different player (very old Samsung) and no problems, just now my Oppo 103 froze at exactly the same scene you described. No chapters selectable beyond that point.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#166 Post by SteveK » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:39 am

I'm having the same freezing problem at 1hr 23min. I just bought this copy so I'm really bummed out about it. I tried everything Graham did, but nothing. I'm using an older PS3 slim - first time I'm having blu ray playback issues.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#167 Post by Graham » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:23 pm

Sorry, I've only just been alerted to this thread by a PM from Steve.

Criterion sent me a replacement disc, which looks to work fine (I haven't sat down to watch it yet, but did check out the relevant scene). I provided them with details of when and where I bought it and a screenshot of the freeze as well as a photo of the box/disc.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#168 Post by SteveK » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:38 pm

I'm happy to report Criterion sent me a new disc with no playback issues on my PS3. There must be a certain batch of discs with encoding problems. The replacement disc they sent has a dark grey "C" logo, while the original is more of an off-white color.

If anyone experiences similar issues with their copy I would just contact Criterion.

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Re: 11 & 477 The Seventh Seal and Bergman Island

#169 Post by Kris » Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:53 pm

SteveK wrote:I'm happy to report Criterion sent me a new disc.
Same here, thanks for the advice. Ah, I wish I had a car to hang the old disc on the rear driving mirror, how cool was that...!

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The Seventh Seal (Ingmar Bergman, 1957)

#170 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon May 09, 2022 10:05 am

DISCUSSION ENDS MONDAY, May 23rd

Members have a two week period in which to discuss the film before it's moved to its dedicated thread in The Criterion Collection subforum. Please read the Rules and Procedures.

This thread is not spoiler free. This is a discussion thread; you should expect plot points of the individual films under discussion to be discussed openly. See: spoiler rules.

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS

I encourage members to submit questions, either those designed to elicit discussion and point out interesting things to keep an eye on, or just something you want answered. This will be extremely helpful in getting discussion started. Starting is always the hardest part, all the more so if it's unguided. Questions can be submitted to me via PM.

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Re: The Seventh Seal (Ingmar Bergman, 1957)

#171 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon May 09, 2022 10:09 am

One part of the movie certain to stand out a lot more now is that it takes place during a plague. What do you guys think of this as a plague movie, and how does that inform your readings of it?

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Re: The Seventh Seal (Ingmar Bergman, 1957)

#172 Post by Big Ben » Mon May 09, 2022 2:33 pm

When I think of the Seventh Seal the first thing that comes to mind is how ubiquitous a lot of it's images have become namely the image of Death announcing himself and of course Max von Sydow playing chess. But now that you mention it the films presence as a "plague film" seems culturally relevant again. Having had COVID myself and having two cousins die from it makes me sort of feel depressed for a myriad of reasons. Part of me wants to point out that the inevitability of death within the film comes because the individuals at the time had no real understanding of infectious disease and the bacteria that caused the Black Death only decimated the populace of Europe because of this ignorance but after witnessing my fellow countrymen throw others onto the pyre so they could get a manicure or go to the bar really bums me out. The inevitability of death is of course a part of the film. You can't escape it. But so much of my view is now now complicated by the very real reality that individuals will willingly kill themselves, and others, to prove some bizarre notion of freedom. Death need not be inevitable in this specific context anymore. I wonder what Bergman would have made of the COVID pandemic.

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Re: The Seventh Seal (Ingmar Bergman, 1957)

#173 Post by Sloper » Tue May 10, 2022 5:17 pm

Big Ben, I think what you’re saying is very relevant to The Seventh Seal, because the film is more about how people respond to the disease than it is about the disease itself.

In that opening sequence of shots, we’re confronted right away with the inevitability and suddenness of death: no sooner does the film begin than its protagonist is marked for death; no sooner have the characters come into being, washed up on the shore, than they find they are about to stop existing. With Antonius Block, we find ourselves in the company of someone whose response to mortality is to engage in a kind of heroically futile dialogue with it – to play chess against an opponent he cannot beat, and to ask questions that can never be answered.

It’s a brilliant idea to anchor the narrative in this spirit of combative inquiry, letting the audience know that this film will be an exploratory journey. In exploring humanity’s response to Death, a lot of what Bergman finds (or shows us) is very bleak: the plague often brings out the worst in people, making them irrational, indifferent, and cruel, and enabling abuses of power at various levels. This is the ‘senseless horror’ that Block discovers at the heart of the godless universe, and it’s exposed by extreme circumstances.

It makes me think of the conversation early on in Scenes From a Marriage, where Johann and Marianne speculate as to whether they would still be happily married if their economic circumstances were different; or the dramatic shift in fortune for the Ekdahl family in Fanny and Alexander. It’s that terrifying sense that everything you are, and everything you have, is entirely dependent on context and can be snatched away in a moment (and is therefore nothing more than an illusion or performance). Bergman often shows how this realisation induces madness and cruelty in people, causing them to lash out furiously at themselves and others, rather than finding a renewed sense of attachment to the things and relationships they have.

The film also establishes the travelling players, Jof and Mia, as counterparts to Antonius. I think you could see Antonius and the players as two different representations of the artist, juxtaposed in a way that we see over and over again in Bergman: the serious actor versus the circus clown, the magician versus the charlatan.

Antonius, returning from a holy crusade, is weighed down by the seriousness of his ultra-high-stakes existential quest, and is isolated from other human beings. This is what the plague-stricken world does to someone like this, horrifying him with the spectacle of suffering and cruelty, and forcing him to withdraw into himself. Mia tries to cheer him up with wild strawberries, but he refuses them, unable to take pleasure (as she and Jof do) in simple, sensual pleasures. He does try, of course, not only by savouring the strawberries and milk a minute later, but also just by moving his hand and asserting his own existence. He is aware that ‘living in the moment’ might provide consolation, but most of the time this is outweighed by his awareness of the horror that pervades the world around him.

The plague-world affects Jof and Mia differently. Their approach to ‘art’ is to try and entertain people, but we see that their audience is cold and ungrateful, preferring to gawp at the parade of flagellants and prostrate themselves before Anders Ek’s gleefully fear-mongering sermon. In the tavern, we see how easily the mob turn against the innocent actor, forcing him to entertain them by humiliating himself. This tells us something bleak about humanity: when reduced to their essence, people (as a collective) prefer the spectacle of other people’s suffering to any other kind of diversion. There’s a horrible logic to this, given that the first performance we see from the players is a dumb-show about a humiliated cuckold (recalling the dumb-show flashback at the start of Sawdust and Tinsel).

However, it’s very significant that Jof recovers quickly from his ordeal in the tavern, thanks to Mia’s comforting attentions and Jof’s delight in his infant son. There’s a link between their simple, superficial, and not especially talented artistic output, and the innocence that enables them to survive unscathed at the end of the film. The point is not that they are incapable of dying – their immunity to the plague stands for their immunity to despair, and this is rooted in their ability to take joy in the present moment.

So… This is the point where I have to admit that I’ve never liked this film. I absolutely hated it when I first saw it, and although I’ve learnt to admire it on subsequent viewings, it has never ‘grown on me’ and I still find it a chore to get through. Watching it twice over the weekend, for the sake of this thread, I was at least able to move beyond my gut feeling that I just can’t stand Jof, Mia, their child, any of the other ‘funny’ characters, or any of the mawkish stuff that’s supposed to endear me to these people.

On reflection, I think the problem I have with this film lies in the contrast I described above. The innocence and simplicity of the players, and their wholesome joy in sensual things, leave me cold – none of this resonates with me or with the way I experience life. It also doesn’t feel, to me, like it resonates with Bergman, but I know that’s a misguided thing to say about such a crucial aspect of this director’s most celebrated film. Perhaps it’s simply not a side of Bergman that I enjoy… And it’s not just that I want the whole film to be gloomy encounters with painters, priests, and witches (although I kind of do), it’s that the portrayal of the ‘lighter’ side of humanity here feels idealised and twee, and ultimately kind of insincere. That moment with the wild strawberries really stuck out to me this time: I feel like Bergman himself is the gloomy knight, outcast from life’s feast, indulging in a vague fantasy about the contentment of simpler folk (and simpler artists, specifically) who know how to enjoy strawberries and milk. But it does strike me as a vague fantasy without any real substance or meaning.

The film comes alive in the more horrific passages, like the lovingly filmed parade of flagellants, but for much of the time it feels plodding and inert. The imagery in Bergman’s films often makes a deep emotional impression on me, and I find some of his films almost unbearably intense…but there’s nothing in The Seventh Seal that stays with me afterwards, except for some of the more irritating close-ups during the comic sequences. I feel like I’ve seen a different film from everyone else.

But I’d be very interested to hear how others respond to this: do you think I’m mis-reading the film? Or do you just have a more sympathetic reaction to the aspects I find so grating?

(Speaking of plague films, I also re-watched Jezebel the other day, another film that uses a plague, and the prospect of imminent death, to expose and explore various facets of a society and its inhabitants.)

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Re: The Seventh Seal (Ingmar Bergman, 1957)

#174 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue May 10, 2022 8:15 pm

That's an interesting reading, Sloper- one I think I mostly share, but I might reframe Bergman's position slightly differently in relation to his intentions of the material (it's worth noting I haven't revisited this film in years, so please let me know if I'm 'off' in my recollections/there's evidence to counter them).

First, I think it's important to note something obvious: that the Plague killed off a significant portion of the population. It was an event that must have forced everyone's consciousness to be fixed on death, something we steer away from for psychological survivalism. On the surface, Antonius Block is a man without humility, who refuses to surrender, who flaunts his ego as a weapon, thinking he can challenge the Devil to chess and outwit him. One could superficially declare it to be about the fallacy of narcissism, but it's more humane than that.

When you suggest that Bergman is stressing a bleak charge against humanity that "when reduced to their essence, people (as a collective) prefer the spectacle of other people’s suffering to any other kind of diversion," I'm not so sure that he is demanding emphasis on this specific form of diversion with his film. Rather than optimizing an outward distraction at others’ suffering, this is a film about generalized distractions, and framing them as both tragically avoidant and resiliently evasive to create distance between the self and acutely dysphoric, potentially-debilitating states. Whether you're deflecting the gravitas of mortality vis a strategic game like chess, or ignorantly frolicking in bliss in a solipsistic bubble against the horrors of your milieu, or engaging in self-flagellation, or watching it, everyone is utilizing a palpable construct to cope with the nebulous and terrifying truth that unites us all and renders us all powerless. I also see this film as about our responses to death- though I think Bergman's stance is admirably vague after glancing at so many diverse 'answers', which may also be an alienating place to arrive at and one that distances me from particularly 'enjoying' this film as well.

The troupe players embrace life with an 'ignorance as bliss, day at a time' mentality of mindfulness, but I think the film’s attitude towards these characters is ambiguous. Like Sloper, this isn’t my instinctive state (I think it’s few people’s, at least in my social environment..) and I believe Bergman is similar, identifying more with Antonius, and perhaps scoffing and jealously craving these traits, judging and enticed by these replies to plights alike? Antonius might think he’s more stoic, and we as audience members might give more credence to his austere perspective vs the troupe’s, but isn’t everybody engaging in some kind of avoidance, and does it really matter what kind when the action is sourced in the same place and the end result is the same for all? Bergman is working to shatter any delusions we have about presenting with a superior response to death. In the end, I don't think Bergman formulates a position of significance on if we giggle ignorantly like the troupe or faux-fight/flee like Antonius, in terms of evading some destination- but Bergman the existentialist crafts a film of several wildly different reactions, though I see them more allegorically as ‘parts’ from an IFS therapy lens.

Each of these characters are parts of our subconscious- and so the ultimate dance is deceptively looking like an acceptance of death, but to me signifies something bleaker: that only in death can our parts live in harmony; only once dead can we dance with death as a friend, or peer. This is a good thing regarding self-preservation, and undoubtedly true and even relieving given the inherent power differential between us and the ominous force of death during corporeal existence, but it would be inspiring if we could lean in and engage with this fatalism a bit more. Even the ‘live in the moment’ people don’t really do that. This is more of a Western World attitude of fatalistically behaving in a manner that will avoid confronting fatalism… impermanence not part of our mental DNA.

I enjoy interpreting the Devil's motivations to entertain Antonius as sourced from existentialist roots as well, where all (even supernatural beings!) must avoid, to some degree, the objectivity of meaninglessness by fighting it with subjective meaning in tangible action. So the film operates as a bit of a self-indulgent fantasy where you’re the star of your own film, but manages to destroy that reading at the same time. The Devil isn't indulging Antonius because Antonius is special, it's because the Devil wants to avoid the rote Sisyphean lifestyle of coming to pluck people from this planet too. He can do that through a game of chess, some good conversation, showing up from place to place to surprise and play around with Antonius from a position where he has the definitive power imbalance. That gets boring without games- it's just too bad people like Antonius can't enjoy the game as it's played, always thinking about the past and future- and it's too bad that the world doesn't support this kind of mindfulness. If anything, watching the self-flagellating monks is a form of being 'present', but it's still ultimately a distraction too, as is the troupe's cheery play. I think Bergman desperately wants to find an avenue to make any of these distractions other than Antonius' relentless overthinking, fearful flight (delusionally portrayed to himself as fighting), and false pride.. but through searching and examining these personalities and prospective attitudes with this film, doesn't come away with any answer. And maybe there's something satisfying about that.

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Re: The Seventh Seal (Ingmar Bergman, 1957)

#175 Post by Sloper » Sat May 14, 2022 8:02 am

That makes sense to me, twbb, especially the point about characters representing different ‘parts’ and different approaches to evading death through palpable constructs. I think you’re right that the film itself presents these different perspectives but is ultimately vague and not overly prescriptive in saying how we ‘should’ respond to or deal with the prospect of mortality. Perhaps I felt that it was giving too much weight to the players’ simplicity and innocence because they survive at the end, but as you say the ending is in fact very ambiguous.

I don’t even think they’re dancing over that hill, unlike Woody Allen at the end of Love and Death. It looks more like they’re being dragged along by Death, each one clinging to the person (or empty space) behind them, reaching out vainly to the tangible world they’re leaving behind. Each one except Death, that is, who looks resolutely ahead towards oblivion.

Jof thinks that Death is forcing the characters to ‘dance’, and perhaps his word-choice here is ironic, recalling the forced ‘dance’ he was made to perform in the tavern. And in the same way that Mia dismisses Jof’s ‘visions’, we can be sceptical about his interpretation of what he sees. We can’t join those people on the hill, we can only watch them from a great distance, and the nature of their experience has to remain a mystery.

It is kind of an inscrutable image through which to portray death: it’s not quite a descent into the underworld or an ascent into heaven, because it’s not at all clear where these people are going. They’re at ‘the top of the world’, with all the land below them and nothing but sky above and behind them, and they’re sort of climbing up and away from the world, but not necessarily to a higher realm - only into some unknowable land of darkness that lies outside the frame. Perhaps what we see is the state of death, that 'Sisyphean life' you were talking about, extending into eternity.

It's interesting that you refer to Death as ‘the Devil’ in your post, and I’m sure these two figures were often conflated in medieval iconography. Death was certainly interchangeable with Fortune in some contexts, and she was sometimes portrayed as a chess-player. The idea behind this, I think, is that everyone experiences a mixture of success and failure in their life, but ultimately we are all check-mated by Fortune/Death because we are inescapably mortal. Satan, by contrast, can be warded off and defeated. So it seems to me that Death, in this film, is not very much like the Devil, who would be trying to make Antonius fall into despair and lose his soul. That chilling final reveal about Death, at the end of the chess game, is that he is a kind of empty vessel representing pure oblivion. His winning move in the game, and his response to Antonius’ existential hand-wringing, is as simple as ‘time to die’.

As such, I find your point about Death playing chess in order to stave off monotony really thought-provoking. When Antonius points out that Death plays chess, he says he knows this from paintings and songs, which is part of what made me see this as a film about artists, with the various characters and their actions reflecting different artistic responses to death, and different audience reactions as well. I didn’t think of Death as someone capable of joy or boredom, but reading your post I think it makes sense to see Death as another ‘part’, a representation of Antonius’ (and everyone else’s) attitude towards death. It’s as if these encounters with Death are really just Antonius trying to come to terms with the oblivion he is about to inhabit. He tells himself that Death plays chess for fun, and that the prospect of a game will appeal to Death because his job must be depressing and monotonous (like that of the collector in Bergman’s favourite film, The Phantom Carriage). But Antonius gradually figures out that this is not a real game, that it can’t really be played or even cheated at, that fun doesn’t enter into it, and that he’s projecting his own weariness and despair onto this anthropomorphised phantom. The real Death (or just lower-case death) doesn’t get bored and doesn’t need distractions, it will just happen and then there will be nothing.

I do like Bergman’s comments in interviews, though, about the comforting aspect of death-as-oblivion, and there is something of this in The Seventh Seal, alongside the abject terror. Ultimately, despite what I said above, that image of the dead souls on the hill conveys (to me) a sense of resolution, acceptance, and even serenity. I don’t mean to sound too morbid, but I’d rather be on that hill than back here on earth (at least as it’s portrayed in this film).

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