1198 Mean Streets

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swo17
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1198 Mean Streets

#1 Post by swo17 » Tue Aug 15, 2023 12:09 pm

Mean Streets

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Martin Scorsese emerged as a generation-defining filmmaker with this gritty portrait of 1970s New York City, one of the most influential works of American independent cinema. Set in the insular Little Italy neighborhood of Scorsese's youth, Mean Streets follows guilt-ridden small-time ringleader Charlie (Harvey Keitel) as he deals with the debts owed by his dangerously volatile best pal, Johnny Boy (Robert De Niro), and pressure from his headstrong girlfriend, Teresa (Amy Robinson). As their intertwined lives spiral out of control, Scorsese showcases his precocious mastery of film style—evident in everything from his propulsive editing rhythms to the lovingly curated soundtrack—to create an electrifying vision of sin and redemption.

DIRECTOR-APPROVED 4K UHD + BLU-RAY SPECIAL EDITION FEATURES

• New 4K digital restoration, approved by director Martin Scorsese and editor Thelma Schoonmaker, with uncompressed monaural soundtrack
• One 4K UHD disc of the film presented in Dolby Vision HDR and one Blu-ray with the film and special features
• Excerpted conversation between Scorsese and filmmaker Richard Linklater from a 2011 Directors Guild of America event
• Selected-scene audio commentary featuring Scorsese and actor Amy Robinson
• New video essay by author Imogen Sara Smith about the film's physicality and portrayal of brotherhood
• Interview with director of photography Kent Wakeford
• Excerpt from the documentary Mardik: Baghdad to Hollywood (2008) featuring Mean Streets cowriter Mardik Martin as well as Scorsese, journalist Peter Biskind, and filmmaker Amy Heckerling
Martin Scorsese: Back on the Block (1973), a promotional video featuring Scorsese on the streets of New York City's Little Italy neighborhood
• Trailer
• English subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing
• PLUS: An essay by critic Lucy Sante

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flyonthewall2983
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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#2 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:35 am

Was interesting finally catching up to this one a few years ago, and noticing so much that might have passed me by before in reading about 70’s movies like the appearance of both Robert and David Carradine in small roles.

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hearthesilence
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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#3 Post by hearthesilence » Wed Aug 16, 2023 5:16 pm

FWIW, here's a Q&A Scorsese gave on this film back in 2012. I think I posted about this right after I attended, but it was surprising to hear that he wasn't keeping up with "new" films because he was too busy, though he did like one of Gaspar Noé's films along with Corneliu Porumboiu's Police, Adjective. He also said it could be tough for him to see Mean Streets again because there are parts of it that make him cringe. (There's definitely one scene that made me feel that way.)

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bearcuborg
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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#4 Post by bearcuborg » Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:16 pm

I think it’s his best film by far. If memory serves he wished he shot the feast a little better. Having just watched this on TCM the other day, I’m even more amazed how bold he was with his style. You can definitely feel the influence this movie had on Spike Lee.

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Rayon Vert
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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#5 Post by Rayon Vert » Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:27 pm

It's definitely my favorite of his along with Last Temptation. Not that the film or the director needs an introduction (!), but these were my reading notes during the last visit, already quite a few years ago now (pre-Silence) when I went through Scorsese's filmography chronologically.
This is an extremely vibrant film where the director’s absolute love of the cinema transpires through every shot. It's amazing that by his third film Scorsese has such absolute command of the cinema and such a distinctive voice and personality. He returns to the materials of his first film to create something vastly superior. Harvey Keitel is back in the lead along with his culturally-derived inner conflicts (here his trying to hold on to his religion and family values in a world and generation where they no longer matter, while at the same time holding on to his troubling racist and sexist views), though here they are part and parcel of a larger narrative that includes a portrait of this threatened world of the small-time mafia of Little Italy at odds with the changing world around it and more specifically Keitel’s efforts to rein in his troublesome cousin Johnny Boy, who’s basically like his id. Each scene in this film is an extremely engaging one, with a post-New Wave camera (steadier and authoritative but incredibly alive) and a powerful, near constant rock soundtrack (except for two powerful Rolling Stones moments, mostly girl group rock, music from a decade earlier reflecting the hoods’ ties to an older time but at the same time, ironically, music made by black women, like the dancer that Keitel is both attracted to and repelled by) that makes this a life-affirming feast despite the violence and the grimness of this world. The actors are all terrific, and especially De Niro, in his first work with Scorcese, creating in Johnny Boy, with his distinctive manner of talking, walking and moving, an enduring character of the cinema.

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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#6 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Aug 16, 2023 7:33 pm

My dad introduced this to me as one of his favorite Scorseses when I was kid, and I watched it many times over (he thought it was a very realistic depiction of this milieu, and he would know), but haven't seen it much since then. I'll never forget De Niro's slo-mo club entrance to "Jumpin' Jack Flash", thinking it was the coolest thing ever when I was ten

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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#7 Post by yoloswegmaster » Thu Nov 02, 2023 1:25 pm

There is a bit of controversy surrounding the colors of this new 4K master (no thanks to Dr. Svet), and Second Sight have put out a statement regarding the restoration:
We’ve had a few queries regarding the master we are using for MEAN STREETS. We co-funded the new 4K restoration with Criterion and therefore are both using the same master.

The restoration was closely supervised by Martin Scorsese*and Thelma Schoonmaker, who used Scorsese's own personal print as reference for the colour grading. This may differ from previous releases which did not have his involvement*and were not accurate to the correct look of the film.

An additional print held at The Academy was also viewed and closely matched his reference print.*Scorsese worked with colourist Yvan Lucas on this new version to finally have MEAN STREETS look the way he intended on Blu-ray.

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Drucker
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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#8 Post by Drucker » Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:02 pm

Like I said in the forthcoming discussion thread, I definitely have seen this hotter/tealish color in old prints. There's definitely a difference between what one sees in the Mean Streets caps and the blanket look of a ritrovata grading. Shots 19 and 20 look pretty different here in a way that seems very intentional, to me!
Last edited by Drucker on Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rayon Vert
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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#9 Post by Rayon Vert » Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:33 pm

This is a case where I'll stick with the older disc not because the newer restoration may be wrong, but I just prefer the look of the previous. Having so many teal-leaning discs already in the collection is extra motivation! Kind of boring to always see the world through the same tinted-glasses.

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jsteffe
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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#10 Post by jsteffe » Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:42 pm

Drucker wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:02 pm
Like I said in the Mean Streets thread, I definitely have seen this hotter/tealish color in old prints. There's definitely a difference between what one sees in the Mean Streets caps and the blanket look of a ritrovata grading. Shots 19 and 20 look pretty different here in a way that seems very intentional, to me!
Agreed! Svet's review doesn't even make sense on its own terms. If you look at all of the different caps he himself supplied there is a normal, wide range of color balance depending on the time of day, location, lighting source, etc. The color grading is faithful to that.

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hearthesilence
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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#11 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Nov 02, 2023 3:54 pm

FWIW, look at the Beav's caps of Carlotta and WB's Blu-rays - the color on the WB Blu-ray looks washed out and toned down in comparison. They're both old discs, but the Carlotta palette looks closer to the restoration and suggests this isn't some wholly new invention.

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jsteffe
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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#12 Post by jsteffe » Thu Nov 02, 2023 4:47 pm

It looks to me as if the old Warner Blu-ray master tried to give every shot a neutral balance and lost color in the process. In the last pair of Beaver's captures, the shot was clearly filmed at late sunset and they tried to "correct" it.

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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#13 Post by FrauBlucher » Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:22 pm

their Statement on X
secondsightfilms wrote:"We’ve had a few queries regarding the master we are using for MEAN STREETS. We co-funded the new 4K restoration with Criterion and therefore are both using the same master. The restoration was closely supervised by Martin Scorsese and Thelma Schoonmaker, (1/3)"

"who used Scorsese's own personal print as reference for the colour grading. This may differ from previous releases which did not have his involvement and were not accurate to the correct look of the film. (2/3)"

"An additional print held at The Academy was also viewed and closely matched his reference print. Scorsese worked with colourist Yvan Lucas on this new version to finally have MEAN STREETS look the way he intended on Blu-ray. (3/3)"

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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#14 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Nov 02, 2023 11:04 pm

I think that’s the same thing posted upthread that started the convo today

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FrauBlucher
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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#15 Post by FrauBlucher » Thu Nov 02, 2023 11:26 pm

My bad

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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#16 Post by FrauBlucher » Sat Nov 18, 2023 4:18 pm


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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#17 Post by roegcamel » Wed Nov 22, 2023 7:15 pm

Watched my UHD of Mean Streets last night. My heart sank immediately when the Saul Bass WB logo had an aggressive yellow push. That yellow cast remained throughout the duration of the feature, and it was very bothersome. The black levels were also odd, as they seemed to be elevated in terms of the amount of darkness on parade in which previously visible detail was now lost, yet the shadow detail was also milky, bright and unnatural. Frankly, I thought it looked unpleasant from start to finish. I know that Dr. Svet's blu-ray.com review compared it to the look of the average Ritrovata grading, and I couldn't agree more. I watched the Kino Lorber BD of Illustrious Corpses for the first time a few nights ago, which boasts a Ritrovata restoration, and thought that looked atrocious. Sadly, the Mean Streets UHD resembled the colors and black levels of that disc in many respects. Scorsese is a big supporter of Ritrovata's work and has even collaborated with them on several occasions. It looks like he was trying to emulate their awful work with his new grading of Mean Streets. Such a shame, as I consider the film to be one of his finest offerings. If Scorsese did indeed use his own answer print as a color reference source, it would appear that he then corrupted his good work by altering the look significantly in an effort to give it a Ritrovata-like veneer.

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Re: 1198 Mean Streets

#18 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:58 pm

Revisited this for the first time since I was a kid, and have to echo RV's sentiments - Scorsese's filmmaking skills are already so distinctively-formed, openly borrowing from his influences (a barfight shot like Drunken Angel; playful romantic flirtation inspired directly by Breathless) yet filtered through the voice and eyes of someone who knows it's real because he's lived it. De Niro's entrance no longer comes across as romanticized. He's an attractive loser because he gives a strong performance, but far less attractive when seeing this movie as an adult. He's established as irresponsible, trouble, dangerous, ignorant, all before we see him enter - and so the Stones' entrance carries an irony immediately alongside the shiny success of walking into a room with money and women and booze and smiles, like you've "arrived" - though as soon as the song stops, we realize the names are unknown, and nobody really cares who does what with who. I didn't realize until now just how early Scorsese started holding the attractive and dangerous sides of a trait of a character, or the promises of entering into a certain lifestyle or milieu.

Keitel is the opposite of De Niro - a man who wrestles in constant inner conflict between his shapeless, enigmatic, neglectful faith and his tactile, urgent, active milieu, where stimulation and commerce are too boisterous to hold space for the consideration of conscience. Does Keitel hold onto a relationship with his Higher Power because he's afraid he'd end up like Johnny Boy if he didn't, because he's not as sold on this lifestyle as his complacent peers and wants to maintain some space between himself and it, because he's self-flagellating in a way, or because he just cannot help but have that conscience and relate to it and engage with it? I love Tony's character. I think he's the heart of the film, in many respects. Keitel may be the most direct "Scorsese" stand-in we've gotten from the man, but it's all of the keen observances in Tony's behavior that enrich the world and demonstrate Scorsese's understanding of the tragedy of how males relate to one another. Tony's inhibitions wavering as he lashes out, sometimes with a spicy verbal or nonverbal expression, or soft bouts of aggression, communicate so much and yet so little. He's angry with his friend for fucking up, for the lack of reciprocity, or at others for the situations affecting him, or just frustrated with what he's observing. I think he represents Scorsese's own relationship with where he's humbly 'at' during this film. He has a part of him that's like Keitel, conflicted, knowing he always will be, somewhat okay with that and even prideful of it as the optimal way to consciously engage with the world, but suffering. He's got a De Niro part too, sure. But I think that immature part looks more like drunk Tony (who is arguably the most "mature" character in the film, not engaging too far to put himself in a dangerous position but always active and showing up in small ways for who he cares about around him), who at times feels like he's doing little kicks under the table to just try to connect a little bit more intimately with his male friends, or asking to be respected or considered or asked about more in reciprocity, or pleading his less mature friends to see the light he sees. And of course, when everything blows up, he's the only one not there. Is that a winner or a loser? The Streets-side would say winner, but Keitel is there, because his Faith-side won't let him not be. Scorsese will spend the rest of his career never lucidly answering for us what he sees as right or wrong there, because the only honesty is in showing the conflict.

Keitel's own keen observances - of the party while Johnny takes a rest on a gravestone, of the lady lighting a cigarette in a cafe as we end the film - signify a lot of Scorsese's own experience perceiving, and I think, underneath but never outright stated, wondering what the meaning of it all is. As he's aged, Scorsese has clarified for himself and us all that it's a path of constant evolution, including one's own meaning-making journey. Which is I think how Scorsese has viewed his peers all along, through a humanistic outlook of people locked in a concrete jungle social nightmare of prosperity and indulgence and competition, just reacting against so much stimulation all the time, primarily with fear masked as stoicism. Now looking back at this after watching him return to making films with increasingly clever self-reflexivity in older age, it feels like the completion of a circle of life rather than a simple evolution. I'm not looking at a filmography list at the moment, but I think Scorsese was closer to doing what he is now all the way back then, in more intimate ways he was in his most active, celebrated period of the 80s and 90s. This is a flavourful work, and I wish I'd revisited it earlier, as it'd've made my 70s list (I don't even know where it placed on my '73 list, but not high enough). I'm glad I'm back to considering this one of his best, as the impression had somehow faded over time.

Also, it's fun to realize that Scorsese's first use of the clever 'zoom-out to tonal-change/thematic reveal' was the inverse of the incredible "drug physical comedy/horror crawl to the car"s set piece in Wolf of Wall Street: When Keitel prays to God in the climax only for his companions to laugh at him for talking to himself as they face active threats overwhelming any presence God may have - and yet deflating any gravitas in favor of protective levity

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