109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#201 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:35 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:36 pm
Yeah, but you haven't seen him sharpen a pencil yet
Undeniably true.

User avatar
whaleallright
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#202 Post by whaleallright » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:47 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:30 pm

As an aside, Sternberg's vision of "New Orleans" struck me as genuinely weird.

You can replace "New Orleans" with just about anything and I think this would hold!

Blonde Venus has some of the most memorable scenes, moments, and iconic images of their collaboration, but it's perhaps a bit less than the sum of its parts. Along with The Scarlet Empress it's certainly the one that has sustained the most commentary from feminist film scholars, though!

Michael, do you not like Marshall in The Little Foxes? That's a poignant performance if ever I saw one....

User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#203 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:05 pm

I have managed to miss Little Foxes somehow -- despite loving Blitzstein's Regina (a shamefully neglected "modern" opera, perhaps the best American one).

User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#204 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:37 am

Disappointed by Scarlet Empress. I thought this was basically a big dumb Hollywood spectacular, albeit with incredible (in multiple senses) art direction and impressive cinematography. I found it historically beyond stupid and dramatically unimpressive. Dietrich seems to have been mostly wasted in her part here. Its hard for me to reconcile this with Sternberg's other films. Overall, I strongly preferred the first 3 Sternberg-Dietrich Hollywood collaborations. (Nice 1971 interview of Dietrich as an extra on this disc, however).

User avatar
mfunk9786
Under Chris' Protection
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#205 Post by mfunk9786 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:52 am

Thought Morocco was really really dull, though the musical numbers were enjoyable and the shabby set for much of the film was the star of the show. Also, one of the shining early examples of carefree onscreen cuckoldry I've ever seen - Adolphe Menjou is the apple of Dietrich's eye for what, 20 seconds?

User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#206 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:00 am

It was strange seeing Menjou as a nice guy in Morocco. I enjoyed the performances as well as the sets -- and was hardly bothered by the thin plot (rather have too little than too much, frankly).

User avatar
Omensetter
Yes We Cannes
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:17 pm
Location: Lawrence, KS, U.S.

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#207 Post by Omensetter » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:46 am

Morocco is definitely the most static of the suite; he basically quadruples his camera movements thereafter and discards with male leads.

Dishonored is the one I keep returning to, though. I hadn't seen it before this set as it seems the odd one out when people discuss these films (I'm likely wrong, but Michael Kerpan's above comment seems the first mention of the film in this thread). Empress is a staggering masterpiece, but Dishonored is just straight-up fun. For portions of the film, Dietrich feels like she barely wants to be in the movie even as she's commanding it, there's an all-timer cinematic cat (in a medium that skews toward the more on-cue dogs), Dietrich in disguise as a dimwitted peasant maid, and that glorious, glorious ending that absolutely engorged me with glee. This is probably the one I'll show to those who haven't seen a Dietrich/von Sternberg film before.

User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#208 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:14 pm

Dishonored might be my favorite of these (but Docks of New York still remains my favorite Sternberg film).

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#209 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:16 pm

Shanghai Express is far and away my favorite of these, but I like Dishonored. Don't really care much one way or the other for the rest...

User avatar
Lost Highway
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:41 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#210 Post by Lost Highway » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:31 pm

Dishonored features
SpoilerShow
my favorite death scene of all time. Trust Dietrich to make execution sexy.


After several orders from the US going lost I don't dare to order this, especially as I'm a bit low on money at the moment. :(

User avatar
Saturnome
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:22 pm

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#211 Post by Saturnome » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:43 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:16 pm
Shanghai Express is far and away my favorite of these, but I like Dishonored. Don't really care much one way or the other for the rest...
I ordered the set on the strength of these two. It feels like there's little talk about Dishonored compared to the other titles, but I liked it a great deal. So I went thinking the rest must be just as great if not better.

User avatar
Lost Highway
Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:41 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#212 Post by Lost Highway » Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:54 pm

Saturnome wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 1:43 pm

I ordered the set on the strength of these two. It feels like there's little talk about Dishonored compared to the other titles, but I liked it a great deal. So I went thinking the rest must be just as great if not better.
Dishonored was long regarded as the least of the von Sternberg/Dietrich films, possibly because it came out the same year as Garbo's Mata Hari which was a far bigger hit. After The Scarlet Empress it's always been my favorite.

User avatar
Shrew
The Untamed One
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:22 am

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#213 Post by Shrew » Sun Jul 15, 2018 2:25 pm

I tend to think of these films as A-sides/B-sides: Morocco/Blonde Venus, Shanghai Express/Dishonored, Scarlet Empress/Devil Is a Woman. I'm an Empress/Express man myself, but Morocco has Sternberg's best ending (save maybe Last Command) and Dietrich at her most iconic. I also have a soft spot for Blonde Venus because of it's thematically more complex, even if it's aesthetically the most borijng major Sternberg.

Also, Docks of New York is Sternberg's masterpiece and I do not understand why this not more widely acknowledged outside of me and Michael Kerpan.

User avatar
Rayon Vert
Green is the Rayest Color
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:52 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#214 Post by Rayon Vert » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:24 pm

What do people here make of The Devil Is a Woman? To me it's not a keeper - Dietrich here is completely uni-dimensional and the whole thing is more like farce, and not a very funny one, bordering on the tedious at times. All we're left with is Sternberg's visuals.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#215 Post by knives » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:06 pm

She's only unidimensial in the eyes of the men. The ending is the great depression of that assumption.

User avatar
Lowry_Sam
Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:35 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#216 Post by Lowry_Sam » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:40 pm

Rayon Vert wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:24 pm
What do people here make of The Devil Is a Woman?
It's my favorite. The set designs, dress changes for ever scene & Marlene herself are so over the top, that it's the film that epitomizes high camp for me. I'm surprised they didn't ask for a John Waters commentary on this one.

User avatar
whaleallright
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:56 am

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#217 Post by whaleallright » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:48 pm

Docks is really something else. I'm reluctant to call it his best, even though I kind of think it is, since it almost seems an insult to suggest he peaked so early!

BTW Sternberg is the early archetype of a path that's become cliché since the 1980s: make an independent sucès d'estime as a gateway to a career in Hollywood. He was also ahead of his time in more or less burning out within a decade, when so many others of his generation forged careers that would last half a century.

User avatar
hearthesilence
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
Location: NYC

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#218 Post by hearthesilence » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:59 pm

It's hard for me to name a "best" Sternberg film - none of his masterworks stand out in that way in relation to the others - but Docks of New York is my favorite.

User avatar
dustybooks
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:52 am
Location: Wilmington, NC

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#219 Post by dustybooks » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:50 pm

I find The Scarlet Empress totally dazzling, audacious, irresistible. (Ironically I enjoy it and Blonde Venus substantially more than the other Dietrich collaborations.) I haven't seen all of Sternberg's works but either Empress or The Last Command is my favorite so far, though I did find Docks achingly beautiful.

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#220 Post by domino harvey » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:30 pm

Criterion should have included the ridiculous soft core porn representation of Dietrich and Von Sternberg bearding for each other in the unbelievably brazen 70s film adaptation of Hollywood Babylon

nitin
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:49 am

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#221 Post by nitin » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:47 am

The Shanghai Gesture is very underrated.

User avatar
liam fennell
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:54 pm

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#222 Post by liam fennell » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:24 pm

I think Docks of New York is probably the most purely beautiful/lyrical of all the Sternbergs, and David Hare I too absolutely consider Salvation Hunters to be an out and out masterpiece (and at least equal to Regeneration or Blind Husbands as far as extraordinary silent debuts go) though I've only seen it in a degraded internet version; particularly impressive/moving for me are the shots of reflections in rippling water and of course the barge arm, which despite being a relentless and indifferent machine is more expressive than the actors!

The past few years I went through a huge Jorge Luis Borges phase and curiously he was crazy about the silents and disappointed with the Dietrich pictures! So I guess it's not an unheard of opinion, that he peaked early. Borges is also the only person in print I've ever seen mention having actually seen the lost Dragnet, which he rated highly and remembered fondly.

That said, the Dietrich pictures, appearing as they do near the dawn of the sound era, are IT for me personally and as such I'd like to just say I'm super mega thankful we have HD versions of these now finally in addition to Anatahan and Blue Angel. Dreams are made of this stuff. Catching up with Anatahan last year finally thanks to the MOC set was also a marvelous experience. Holy cow!

User avatar
Michael Kerpan
Spelling Bee Champeen
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
Location: New England
Contact:

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#223 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:39 pm

I wonder why Salvation Hunters (plugged by Ozu) remains unavailable (in any acceptable form)?

User avatar
The Fanciful Norwegian
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:24 pm
Location: Teegeeack

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#224 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:09 pm

Edition Filmmuseum released The Salvation Hunters a couple of years back; I haven't seen it myself, but by all accounts it's more than acceptable, unless DVD-only is a complete dealbreaker for you. (There is an HD version from the same restoration circulating unofficially.)

User avatar
Tommaso
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 10:09 am

Re: 109, 930-935 Dietrich & von Sternberg in Hollywood

#225 Post by Tommaso » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:53 pm

And what's more, they've also added the only surviving five minutes of Sternberg's 1929 "The Case of Lena Smith" (and just seeing those five minutes makes one convinced that this must have been a major Sternberg silent!). Haven't seen the Filmmuseum disc yet either, only the HD TV broadcast, which looks great. But Filmmuseum are one of the few labels you can basically trust blindly - unlike Criterion ( sorry for this, but I'm still under the impression of the major disaster that CC's "Tree of Wooden Clogs" is...)

Post Reply