947 Shampoo

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dustybooks
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Re: 947 Shampoo

#26 Post by dustybooks » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:00 am

Nick Dawson's Hal Ashby biography excerpted there is quite informative, though also a pretty depressing read (inevitably). I read it before I had seen Shampoo so it was enlightening to revisit it in that context. Having just caught Bound for Glory a couple of weeks ago I've now seen all of Ashby's major films save The Landlord and I think his entire career feels like a sadly missed opportunity. There are traces of such incalculable grace in nearly all of his films, but with a couple of exceptions something always seems to hold them back from being totally successful. As a case in point, I found Shampoo overall disappointing -- Beatty's performance was a particular hindrance for me, ironically given his control of the set -- but the linked piece has made me remember many scenes quite fondly -- which means I must revisit it, but also reminds me of how it feels like most of Ashby's films are less than the sum of their parts.
Last edited by dustybooks on Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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domino harvey
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Re: 947 Shampoo

#27 Post by domino harvey » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:12 pm

I think the article shows that the making of this film ended up being more interesting than the film itself. Not to be a broken record, but this highlights again, unfortunately, how Criterion really either got screwed or rested on their hands here, as an honest look at the film's creation would probably make this worth picking up for the extras. As is, I am with you in finding the film disappointing, though I must confess curiosity may get the best of me for a revisit one of these days

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Roger Ryan
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Re: 947 Shampoo

#28 Post by Roger Ryan » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:40 pm

dustybooks wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:00 am
...Having just caught Bound for Glory a couple of weeks ago I've now seen all of Ashby's major films save The Landlord and I think his entire career feels like a sadly missed opportunity. There are traces of such incalculable grace in nearly all of his films, but with a couple of exceptions something always seems to hold them back from being totally successful...
If you don't find any of his major films totally successful, then "his entire career...a sadly missed opportunity" seems like the wrong way to characterize the situation. Maybe he just wasn't that great of a director and was amazingly opportunistic to be hired as one as often as he was.

The "incalculable grace" you mention is what elevates the 70s work from good to excellent in my opinion. Given that one can find flaws in any film, Ashby's 70s releases are successful enough to make them a remarkable run of films in an era full of superb work from numerous New Hollywood auteurs. The Landlord isn't likely to change your opinion, but it's a very good debut in my mind, capturing race/class relations in a naturalistic way that films from today have trouble doing well (even given the Harold and Maude-style broad humor that is employed here-and-there).

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dustybooks
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Re: 947 Shampoo

#29 Post by dustybooks » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:54 pm

Roger Ryan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:40 pm
If you don't find any of his major films totally successful, then "his entire career...a sadly missed opportunity" seems like the wrong way to characterize the situation. Maybe he just wasn't that great of a director and was amazingly opportunistic to be hired as one as often as he was.
I should clarify -- I actually do find The Last Detail and Being There to be masterful, which is what made me seek out the rest, read a book about him, etc. And I do like most of his other films, I just find that there's typically a big caveat for me.

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Roger Ryan
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Re: 947 Shampoo

#30 Post by Roger Ryan » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:58 pm

dustybooks wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:54 pm
Roger Ryan wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:40 pm
If you don't find any of his major films totally successful, then "his entire career...a sadly missed opportunity" seems like the wrong way to characterize the situation. Maybe he just wasn't that great of a director and was amazingly opportunistic to be hired as one as often as he was.
I should clarify -- I actually do find The Last Detail and Being There to be masterful, which is what made me seek out the rest, read a book about him, etc. And I do like most of his other films, I just find that there's typically a big caveat for me.
Fair enough. It's even likely I'm bothered by the same flaws you are in some of his films. :wink:

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Gregor Samsa
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Re: 947 Shampoo

#31 Post by Gregor Samsa » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:47 am

Just caught up on this, and while I enjoyed it, it didn't really grab me:
SpoilerShow
Nashville did the 'empty inner life of a lothario' story better while also juggling a dozen other plots.
Its fascinating to learn from the article quoted earlier though that the production was so fraught in a way the celebratory critics' interview on the Criterion (for obvious reasons) never really gets at, and learning that Ashby had originally planned to score the film with a range of songs from 1968 highlighted one of its most interesting details to me. While its a little less subtle that both the film's central gatherings play the Beatles (albeit in an adult contemporary arrangement of Yesterday at the first), the second party is only playing songs from 1967 (Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds, as well as Buffalo Springfield's Mr. Soul, Jefferson Airplane's Plastic Fantastic Lover and the Jimi Hendrix Experience's Manic Depression), which given all those bands subsequently released albums in 1968 (and indeed the Springfield had already broken up months before the 1968 election) gives the party itself a curiously period feel even in its own time, as if they can't quite move on from the Summer of Love at the dawn of Nixon's presidency.

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Re: 947 Shampoo

#32 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:40 am

I also find this film mildly entertaining, though as a satire I think what works isn't what was intended, certainly not by Beatty. Clearly designed to exploit sexual politics, there is something strange about supporting the male promiscuity (aka Beatty playing Beatty?) by giving the character depth and validating his development through passively inducing his id and ego with sexually fluid experiences, coasting by using women as objects, until he 'self-actualizes.' I "get" that there is an eye here into the sexual revolution as bearing consequences beyond the free love ideas, but I don't think propping up the male journey of self-discovery succeeds, while the liberation of women's sexuality disempowering the men who have held onto that dominant position is far more interesting. The film works for me by reducing Beatty's character to the shallow superficialities he inhabits through a confused lack of self-actualization rather than one of growth where he would authentically fall for Christie. That isn't to say he is robbed of worth, but I always get the sense at the end that his feelings of love are fabricated by himself subconsciously, and there is a sadness that he cannot access what love is through his sexually desensitized and egocentric lifestyle, and so his experience of being cuckolded isn't sad because he's finally reached a peak of progress, but because he's now been deprived of a sense of identity by stuck between wondering whether he is capable of love and being numb to his vices. It's an instability that is only possible through a personal history of embracing gender roles and complacent actions in line with sexual prowess empty of meaning, only to veer from that looking for more without a leg to stand on, thereby reducing the myth of free love to another ideological trapping that stunts emotional evolution. Maybe this was Ashby's point, but everything about Beatty signals to me that he wouldn't skewer his real-life self so vulnerably.

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Roger Ryan
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Re: 947 Shampoo

#33 Post by Roger Ryan » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:31 am

therewillbeblus wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:40 am
...Maybe this was Ashby's point, but everything about Beatty signals to me that he wouldn't skewer his real-life self so vulnerably.
While I don't doubt that Beatty was aware that the character of George reflected his own reputation at the time, his intent was to emulate celebrity hair stylist Jay Sebring. The project had been in development for some time, but I think it's telling that the film is set in 1968. Clearly, Beatty didn't want the time frame to extend beyond Sebring's own lifetime (murdered, of course, in August, 1969). In the 1998 interview included in the Criterion disc, Beatty essentially agrees with your assessment of George, that, by the film's end, he is just starting to become aware of how his shallowness is stunting his emotional growth. As Beatty tells it, twenty-five years later, his interest was in examining a flawed, narcissistic character who is perceived as the hippest guy around, but is unable to mature. I suspect that Towne and Ashby brought more of the era's political shift subtext to the film.

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Re: 947 Shampoo

#34 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:55 am

Interesting - all the reports I've read from the time period that film was released (which admittedly I don't have concrete sources to back that up) essentially say that Beatty was controlling around ensuring that his character was given more depth and focus. I think it's entirely possible for him to be aware of that angle while also believing that the empathy should be fixed on him as the star, feeling pathos for him rather than having that moment break that patriarchal idea that allows us to empathize with him and then realize that he's not the center of the story of the world, and validate all the women in the picture on equal terms. It doesn't seem like Beatty was interested in going that far, although the film certainly puts up that front, and thus repeats a cycle of being self-aware/acknowledging the inequality but also hijacking the picture towards the male lens and keeping us there reinforcing it as our gaze. But I'll watch the interview, it sounds interesting and maybe he's altered his mindset since then, or who knows - that perspective on events could be wrong but given Beatty's reputation around control and egotism of that time period, those reports don't surprise me. I don't think he's "wrong" but it's another fascinating example of someone trying to be self-reflective of flaws in themselves, the systems, sexual politics, etc. while also holding onto the mic for dear life and reinforcing that we still give them the attention.

Also, while I always think of Sebring too, I thought the character was based around several different hair stylists of the era (including him of course)?

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The Fanciful Norwegian
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Re: 947 Shampoo

#35 Post by The Fanciful Norwegian » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:33 am

Roger Ryan wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:31 am
As Beatty tells it, twenty-five years later, his interest was in examining a flawed, narcissistic character who is perceived as the hippest guy around, but is unable to mature. I suspect that Towne and Ashby brought more of the era's political shift subtext to the film.
He's obviously not a neutral party, but in Easy Rider, Raging Bulls, there are quotes from Beatty (justifying his co-writing credit, which Towne privately told acquaintances was unearned) claiming that it was his idea to work the '68 election into the background of the film and that the political subtext was completely absent from Towne's drafts.

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Roger Ryan
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Re: 947 Shampoo

#36 Post by Roger Ryan » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:47 pm

The Fanciful Norwegian wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:33 am
Roger Ryan wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:31 am
As Beatty tells it, twenty-five years later, his interest was in examining a flawed, narcissistic character who is perceived as the hippest guy around, but is unable to mature. I suspect that Towne and Ashby brought more of the era's political shift subtext to the film.
He's obviously not a neutral party, but in Easy Rider, Raging Bulls, there are quotes from Beatty (justifying his co-writing credit, which Towne privately told acquaintances was unearned) claiming that it was his idea to work the '68 election into the background of the film and that the political subtext was completely absent from Towne's drafts.
Given how long Beatty devoted to getting Reds on the screen, I wouldn't be surprised that the subtext of the '68 election was his idea. Without reading more about each participant's input (and I did read quite a bit about the genesis of Shampoo a few years back that I have probably forgotten most of!), the political angle just seems like something more up Towne's alley. At any rate, as a viewer, I'm always keenly aware of the news reports and political speeches playing on the TVs in the background of a number of scenes, which I believe is something Ashby brought to the film.
therewillbeblus wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:55 am
Interesting - all the reports I've read from the time period that film was released (which admittedly I don't have concrete sources to back that up) essentially say that Beatty was controlling around ensuring that his character was given more depth and focus. I think it's entirely possible for him to be aware of that angle while also believing that the empathy should be fixed on him as the star...
Yeah, I don't think our two viewpoints are incompatible. Beatty saw himself as the originator of the project and the star of the film, and would have certainly insisted on the character having as much depth and focus as possible. I just think that the interpretation of the character being flawed in the way you suggested was deliberate on his part, and that Beatty the actor was not manipulated into giving a different performance than he intended.

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Re: 947 Shampoo

#37 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:05 pm

Roger Ryan wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:47 pm
therewillbeblus wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:55 am
Interesting - all the reports I've read from the time period that film was released (which admittedly I don't have concrete sources to back that up) essentially say that Beatty was controlling around ensuring that his character was given more depth and focus. I think it's entirely possible for him to be aware of that angle while also believing that the empathy should be fixed on him as the star...
Yeah, I don't think our two viewpoints are incompatible. Beatty saw himself as the originator of the project and the star of the film, and would have certainly insisted on the character having as much depth and focus as possible. I just think that the interpretation of the character being flawed in the way you suggested was deliberate on his part, and that Beatty the actor was not manipulated into giving a different performance than he intended.
Oh I agree, I don't think he was manipulated into being in a different film or giving a different performance - I believe we're saying the same thing in regards to Beatty's own aims and the execution of the film. My original post was intending to say that looking at this from a different context is more interesting than the one Beatty pushed for and that we got-as-intended. If viewing the film from that angle, it becomes more of a feminist film and disempowers Beatty's pathos as the sole focus by validating him on an equal plain with the rest of the women, which would be done by devaluing his 'self-actualization' moment to being ego-gratifying self-importance hogging the camera - still valid, but revealing in its nature all the same. It's a shame that this wasn't recognized to the perverse extent that it could have been - though I do think there's enough there to see the film through that lens without reaching too far.

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Re: 947 Shampoo

#38 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:26 pm

This is outright nitpicking, but for the life of me I can't see how Lee Grant came away with an Oscar for this. It's not a bad performance by any means, but it's not as outstanding as some of the other turns are here. There are far more egregious head-scratchers from this time as far as the Academy's choices go, but having just seen this for the first time among the positives that stuck out to me.

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Re: 947 Shampoo

#39 Post by dws1982 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:15 pm

I remember reading somewhere that Grant had a lot of personal sympathy built in Hollywood at the time for surviving the blacklist (something she was always willing to talk about, apparently), and because she'd had a sitcom on NBC that aired in the fall of 75 that was cancelled after just a few episodes (a common thing now, but surprising then, when the world didn't move as fast) which she publicly criticized NBC for on The Tonight Show.

She's good in Shampoo (which I actually just watched last weekend), but I thought Jack Warden and Goldie Hawn were the standouts.

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Re: 947 Shampoo

#40 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:39 am

I've never seen Warden bad in anything. The first thing I remember him in was Problem Child, a perfunctory studio movie, and he was somehow memorable in it.

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Re: 947 Shampoo

#41 Post by smccolgan » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:31 pm

flyonthewall2983 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:39 am
I've never seen Warden bad in anything. The first thing I remember him in was Problem Child, a perfunctory studio movie, and he was somehow memorable in it.
He's also incredible in Dirty Work - "Dirty old man, am I?" gets me every time.

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Re: 947 Shampoo

#42 Post by domino harvey » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:41 pm

smccolgan wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:31 pm
flyonthewall2983 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:39 am
I've never seen Warden bad in anything. The first thing I remember him in was Problem Child, a perfunctory studio movie, and he was somehow memorable in it.
He's also incredible in Dirty Work - "Dirty old man, am I?" gets me every time.
His line "It rhymes with COCK" is literally the only thing I remember about the movie

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Re: 947 Shampoo

#43 Post by beamish14 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:59 pm

flyonthewall2983 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:39 am
I've never seen Warden bad in anything. The first thing I remember him in was Problem Child, a perfunctory studio movie, and he was somehow memorable in it.

His turn as twins in Used Cars is on the same level as Jeremy Irons in Dead Ringers. That was the film that really set him up for his later career as a "dirty old
man".

I think he worked with Sidney Lumet more than any other actor as well. He's very charming in Bye Bye Braverman and elevates Guilty as Sin.

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Re: 947 Shampoo

#44 Post by smccolgan » Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:13 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:41 pm
smccolgan wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:31 pm
flyonthewall2983 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:39 am
I've never seen Warden bad in anything. The first thing I remember him in was Problem Child, a perfunctory studio movie, and he was somehow memorable in it.
He's also incredible in Dirty Work - "Dirty old man, am I?" gets me every time.
His line "It rhymes with COCK" is literally the only thing I remember about the movie
"Back in my day, we didn't have any of those fancy birth control methods, like PULLIN' OUT" also resonates. Maybe one of my favorite comedies of all time.

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Re: 947 Shampoo

#45 Post by therewillbeblus » Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:05 pm

I think it's quite funny too, but I genuinely enjoy Norm's brand of humor. The best scene is def where they laugh about the implications of being brothers through sharing a sister, until it stops being funny.

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