Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

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Calvin
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#201 Post by Calvin » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:44 pm

I'm hoping to hear of a new and improved encode for Fanny and Alexander, if that would even be possible without an additional disc.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#202 Post by EddieLarkin » Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:47 pm

I'm sure it could be. I imagine David M. or someone with his skill set could improve vastly on the old release even with a single disc.

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Lowry_Sam
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#203 Post by Lowry_Sam » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:49 pm

Calvin wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:44 pm
I'm hoping to hear of a new and improved encode for Fanny and Alexander, if that would even be possible without an additional disc.
I was hoping they'd at least an improved transfer on 2 discs, but judging from the preliminary DVD Beaver review, it looks like much of the previously issued material is just the previously issued blu-ray discs, so the fact that it is still on just one disc looks like it too will be a reissue of the old disc.

Zack567
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#204 Post by Zack567 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:31 pm

charal wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:15 pm
Beaver’s review does list the 1:1.33 MARIONETTES as open matte which, if correct, should imply that potential future widescreen screenings would be inevitable. The questions to ask are: (1) Has the film been shown theatrically? and (2) Does the blu ray image look badly cut? If it looks good, that is all that matters. You could argue for both presentations.
From the Life of the Marionettes was made for German TV in 1980, and was also released theatrically in various countries including the US. I saw it during its first run in NYC, when it was projected widescreen and looked great. For a long time I'd wondered whether German TV in 1980 would have commissioned work in a widescreen aspect ratio, or whether the original intent was to compose for full screen.

I then got the Tartan UK DVD, which is full-screen 1.37 ratio. The DVD shows that this ratio is clearly incorrect: much of the framing is very awkward (at various times there is lots of empty headroom above the characters, or awkward framing wherein characters are cut off at the middle of their shins), and at one point microphones are visible hovering at the top of the frame! (Clearly, this shot was allowed in the cut because the mikes would not have been visible when the image was matted to 1.66.) My guess is that the producers insisted on the widescreen ratio because they were counting on overseas theatrical sales.

Criterion does have a bad history of releasing films originally shot 1.37 incorrectly matted to 1.66 or 1.85, but in this case I believe they have done the right thing.

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domino harvey
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#205 Post by domino harvey » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:17 pm

EddieLarkin wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:06 pm
DVDBeaver have started to go through the set and the first surprise is that Autumn Sonata uses a different transfer:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/ingmar_bergman_blu-ray.htm
More updates: the Sawdust and Tinsel disc won't be a clone of the upcoming solo release, because it shares the disc with the Rite. And I was worried after Marionettes but the Rite is Academy, as it should be

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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#206 Post by Zack567 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:32 am

EddieLarkin wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:23 pm
The Magician and Smiles of a Summer Night were far more in need of a new transfer (and in the latter case, one definitely exists!) than Autumn Sonata, so it'll be disappointing if it's the only surprise.
The film that is truly in need of a new transfer is Summer Interlude. The grading used for the single-disc Criterion Blu-ray release is severely lacking in contrast, and really fails to do justice to the film. I've seen 35mm prints of Summer Interlude more times than I can count, and (similar to the other films Gunnar Fischer shot for Bergman) it's an extraordinarily beautiful film with deep blacks and brilliant highlights. This is completely lost in the single-disc Criterion blu-ray release, which is terribly grayed out in comparison. The basic transfer seems fine, but it needs to be regraded to correct the contrast.

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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#207 Post by domino harvey » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:52 am

Review of the other new resto, Seventh Seal-- less grain and brighter

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tenia
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#208 Post by tenia » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:17 am

I'd love to see if F&A indeed gets a different better encode, but so far, I'm particularly surprised by the different darker color scheme of Autumn Sonata. It's a difference all the more surprising that both restorations are 2K restorations performed in Sweden from the OCN.

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domino harvey
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#209 Post by domino harvey » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:24 pm

Magic Flute review shows less blue colors than the BFI (thank goodness) and some new supplements, including an hour-plus Swedish doc on the making of the film

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hearthesilence
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#210 Post by hearthesilence » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:13 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:52 am
Review of the other new resto, Seventh Seal-- less grain and brighter
They look so similar, I wonder if they're actually derived from the same film elements with the 4K restoration mainly having more "restoration" work done on it besides the scan itself (clean-up, grain management, etc.)

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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#211 Post by mteller » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:12 am

new transfer for Cries and Whispers

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tenia
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#212 Post by tenia » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:31 am

Between this one and Autumn Sonata, good luck to any scholar who wishes to analyse the movies' thematics and visuals relationships... For instance, when I watched for the first time Autumn Sonata via the individual Criterion release, I was interested in how Bergman was showing a quite crepuscular movie with very vivid colors. Now ? Well, I'm not so sure...

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Big Ben
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#213 Post by Big Ben » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:04 am

tenia wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:31 am
Between this one and Autumn Sonata, good luck to any scholar who wishes to analyse the movies' thematics and visuals relationships... For instance, when I watched for the first time Autumn Sonata via the individual Criterion release, I was interested in how Bergman was showing a quite crepuscular movie with very vivid colors. Now ? Well, I'm not so sure...
You'd certainly understand everything if Criterion would just commission another kogonada visual essay.

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tenia
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#214 Post by tenia » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:28 am

Not too far away : Wild Side released Demme's Something Wild on Blu-ray in France a few years ago. It was after Criterion's version was released but unfortunately, the French disc was using a much older master, with a relatively different color scheme. It didn't prevent the label to get French DoP Pierre William-Glenn to discuss the movie's visual style, despite the HD master used by WS being different from the one used by Criterion, and which was approved by Demme.

There has also been a very recent interview with Jean-Baptiste Thoret, who is responsible of a new Studio Canal collection in France, who said :
"I found ridiculous when you release a super rare movie like Mandingo, and that somebody rants because the color grading on the 12th shot isn't so good. It's not cinephilia nor strictness, it's just movie-eating in a pure dumb way that leads to cover the essence of cinema and esthetic by a rhetoric on technique. As long as a movie exists in an uncut copy of decent quality, I'm fine."

He's a film scholar who has spent years analysing esthetic in movies, especially noir movies (like Mann's Thief). How can one unrelate analysing esthetic with making sure that you're watching the movie correctly to begin with ?

In any case here, I have no idea what's correct or not (both options seem fine), I just wonder how the same lab with the same elements in similar workflows can end up with results so quite different.

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Drucker
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#215 Post by Drucker » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:34 am

This is far from the first time where an original, 10+ year old DVD turns out to possibly have more accurate colors than a new restoration!

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tenia
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#216 Post by tenia » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:50 am

Though you're right in general, in the case of the Bergmans, these are not this kind of comparison, hence my surprised remark. From all I can gather, the same teams from the same lab worked on the same elements for 2 different gradings.

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Drucker
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#217 Post by Drucker » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:51 am

Got it. That is shocking!

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domino harvey
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#218 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:57 am

Through some bizarre good fortune, none of Bergman's color Criterions I put up for sale have sold on eBay yet, so I'll be able to retain versions that look like I'm not Godard watching behind tinted glasses. I am fearful of what the Passion of Anna will look like though

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Drucker
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#219 Post by Drucker » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:01 pm

You've seen these theatrically, on 35? Have reason to believe the new restorations are less faithful? I'm still a Bergman novice so really not sure what to pick up at this point!

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hearthesilence
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#220 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:05 pm

Definitely a different transfer in this case as the framing shifts considerably when you compare one to the other. The new disc looks like it's working from a better scan - a few shots look crisper with more texture to them, and not from any sharpening or enhancement. (Though I supposed it's possible the picture on these shots was softened a touch on the older Blu-Ray disc.) Just look at the handwriting in the close-up of that book - subtle difference, it's probably only noticeable when you compare them side-by-side but the new disc is a hair crisper.

Re: the color, it's a tough call. The new disc is generally colder and rawer, and some shots definitely have a contrast boost (particularly the outdoor shots - look at the way the light blows out). This may very well reflect the original grading. I like how the reds look on the previous BD, it seems to bring out the concept behind its use, but I have no idea if it's what Bergman would have wanted back when he made the film. I actually saw this at BAM in 35mm, but this was eight years ago and I didn't compare it to the DVD at the time so I can't say which disc looks more like the print I saw, it's been way too long.

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swo17
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#221 Post by swo17 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:13 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:57 am
Through some bizarre good fortune, none of Bergman's color Criterions I put up for sale have sold on eBay yet, so I'll be able to retain versions that look like I'm not Godard watching behind tinted glasses. I am fearful of what the Passion of Anna will look like though
Aren't the previous releases the ones that look more tinted?

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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#222 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:52 pm

Depends on what color you think his lenses are

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RobertB
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#223 Post by RobertB » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:01 pm

Old publicity stills now online is of course not proof of anything. But I can't see anything on the official Bergman site that makes me think the deep red tint of the previous release was more correct than the new one. Scroll up and down for more.
http://www.ingmarbergman.se/verk/viskni ... ia#item-18

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jsteffe
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#224 Post by jsteffe » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:20 pm

One potential advantage of the new grading is that the whites pop more and create a stronger visual contrast between whites, reds and blacks. (Though it is worth noting that the highlights are quite blue in some of the DVD Beaver screen captures.) That is a very different visual impression from having an overall reddish tint to the image. The flesh tones also look more natural in the new restoration.

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hearthesilence
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#225 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:52 pm

RobertB wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:01 pm
Old publicity stills now online is of course not proof of anything. But I can't see anything on the official Bergman site that makes me think the deep red tint of the previous release was more correct than the new one. Scroll up and down for more.
http://www.ingmarbergman.se/verk/viskni ... ia#item-18
Those stills look like they've faded - the one labeled "Maria (Liv Ullmann) och David (Erland Josephson)" is pretty milky. I wouldn't use them as color guides.

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