110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
EddieLarkin
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#76 Post by EddieLarkin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:28 am

The French and UK StudioCanal sets use the same SD transfer as the Criterion, so yes, the BFI is the only place to get a watchable Thomsoncolor version.

Tuppence
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:52 am

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#77 Post by Tuppence » Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:39 am

EddieLarkin wrote:Going by the review of Les Vacances de M. Hulot, it looks like the BFI disc can be ditched. I expect Mon oncle to be the same, and Playtime goes without saying. So it should just be Jour de fete.
I wouldn't be so sure. The original 1953 version of Vacances on the Criterion looks like an uprez to me. The presentation on StudioCanal's UK Blu-ray is PAL SD, with thin black lines at the top and bottom of the image. I see the same issue on the Blu-ray.com grabs of the Criterion, and the fact that you can see the half-scan lines (the thin black borders at the top and bottom change thickness halfway across, which is a PAL giveaway) more or less puts that to bed.

The BFI presentation, though slightly softer than the 1978 version (due, I imagine, to having to use whatever elements from the original release that remained), was definitely genuine HD and filled the entire screen.

It's not looking good for My Uncle (also presented in SD by StudioCanal), though hopefully we'll be pleasantly surprised.

shaky
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:52 pm

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#78 Post by shaky » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:02 am

Whew, this is all a bit confusing. Thankfully I have the BFI edition. I've actually yet to see this film and would like to know what version you all would watch first.

User avatar
Forrest Taft
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:34 pm
Location: Stavanger, Norway

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#79 Post by Forrest Taft » Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:36 am

EddieLarkin wrote:
swo17 wrote:In any case, if the Criterion set is going to closely follow the StudioCanal one, are there any other BFI editions that people might want to hold onto?
Going by the review of Les Vacances de M. Hulot, it looks like the BFI disc can be ditched. I expect Mon oncle to be the same, and Playtime goes without saying. So it should just be Jour de fete.
I thought the Richard Lester interview on BFI's Vacances was very good, and it doesn't look to be on the Criterion.

User avatar
swo17
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#80 Post by swo17 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:23 am

Tuppence wrote:
EddieLarkin wrote:Going by the review of Les Vacances de M. Hulot, it looks like the BFI disc can be ditched. I expect Mon oncle to be the same, and Playtime goes without saying. So it should just be Jour de fete.
I wouldn't be so sure. The original 1953 version of Vacances on the Criterion looks like an uprez to me. The presentation on StudioCanal's UK Blu-ray is PAL SD, with thin black lines at the top and bottom of the image. I see the same issue on the Blu-ray.com grabs of the Criterion, and the fact that you can see the half-scan lines (the thin black borders at the top and bottom change thickness halfway across, which is a PAL giveaway) more or less puts that to bed.

The BFI presentation, though slightly softer than the 1978 version (due, I imagine, to having to use whatever elements from the original release that remained), was definitely genuine HD and filled the entire screen.
Content-wise, isn't the 1978 version essentially the same as the 1953 one, only with the (pretty good) Jaws joke added?

User avatar
EddieLarkin
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#81 Post by EddieLarkin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:29 am

Tuppence, you're absolutely right. I didn't even check the 1953 caps! You can see the BFI transfer at DVDBeaver; there are no matching caps but it's definitely HD whilst the version on the Criterion is definitely SD upscaled. And My Uncle is SD too? Then it almost certainly will be on the Criterion. So glad I have all three of my BFI discs now!

User avatar
hearthesilence
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:22 am
Location: NYC

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#82 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:35 am

swo17 wrote:
Tuppence wrote:
EddieLarkin wrote:Going by the review of Les Vacances de M. Hulot, it looks like the BFI disc can be ditched. I expect Mon oncle to be the same, and Playtime goes without saying. So it should just be Jour de fete.
I wouldn't be so sure. The original 1953 version of Vacances on the Criterion looks like an uprez to me. The presentation on StudioCanal's UK Blu-ray is PAL SD, with thin black lines at the top and bottom of the image. I see the same issue on the Blu-ray.com grabs of the Criterion, and the fact that you can see the half-scan lines (the thin black borders at the top and bottom change thickness halfway across, which is a PAL giveaway) more or less puts that to bed.

The BFI presentation, though slightly softer than the 1978 version (due, I imagine, to having to use whatever elements from the original release that remained), was definitely genuine HD and filled the entire screen.
Content-wise, isn't the 1978 version essentially the same as the 1953 one, only with the (pretty good) Jaws joke added?
That's what I thought too. Weren't these marketed as complete, all-new transfers? I can't understand how they can do all that work and then just get lazy instead of finishing the extra mile.

User avatar
EddieLarkin
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#83 Post by EddieLarkin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:51 am

I've summarised it all as best I can:

Jour de fete (1949) - Criterion only, HD
Jour de fete (1964) - Criterion only, HD
The Village Fair (1964, English variant) - BFI only, HD
Jour de fete (1994/5) - Criterion SD, BFI HD

Les Vacances de M. Hulot (1953) - Criterion SD, BFI HD
Les Vacances de M. Hulot (1978) - Criterion HD, BFI HD (same transfer)

Mon oncle (1958) - Criterion HD, BFI HD (different transfer, Criterion superior)
My Uncle (1984) - Criterion SD, BFI HD (tbc)

So all 3 BFI discs are worth keeping unless you have no interest in My Uncle. Les Vacances de M. Hulot would be totally redundant from Criterion if it wasn't for the superior extras. Jour de fete is a must from both companies.

User avatar
EddieLarkin
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#84 Post by EddieLarkin » Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:55 am

hearthesilence wrote:That's what I thought too. Weren't these marketed as complete, all-new transfers? I can't understand how they can do all that work and then just get lazy instead of finishing the extra mile.
The 1994/95 version of Jour de fete found on the Criterion/SC discs appears to come from the same source as what was used on DVDs reviewed at DVDBeaver years ago. You can see direct comparisons and how much of a huge step backward it is from the BFI transfer. Since the 1994 version is not a re-edit, but rather what was originally shot in 1949 on the primary camera, it can be argued that it may have been Tati's preferred version. Certainly it is the primary presentation on the BFI disc.

Tuppence
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:52 am

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#85 Post by Tuppence » Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:09 pm

swo17 wrote:Content-wise, isn't the 1978 version essentially the same as the 1953 one, only with the (pretty good) Jaws joke added?
From Philip Kemp's essay in the BFI booklet:
Tati was an inveterate tinkerer with his own work, and Les Vacances went through various editions. He re-edited it, re-recording the soundtrack in 1962, and again in 1978, four years before his death. The 'restored version' in this set is the 1978 version, which runs over ten minutes shorter than the original; some scenes have been curtailed, others (such as a gag with a sleeping priest in a garden, and Martine and her aunt looking at photos of Hulot on the train home) omitted altogether. But also in this set is the original 1953 version - longer, with an even gentler rhythm and Alain Romans' first, lighter orchestration. Which is better? A vous de décider, messieurs-dames...
In any case, it's a great pity that the original film that first launched Tati on a major international scale is given such a compromised, afterthought presentation by StudioCanal/Criterion. The BFI's booklets make clear that all the elements used to create their HD masters (PlayTime excepted, which came from Criterion) were provided directly by Les Films de Mon Oncle, so excuses for these SD versions are looking more and more scarce.

User avatar
PfR73
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:07 pm

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#86 Post by PfR73 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:57 pm

EddieLarkin wrote:Les Vacances de M. Hulot would be totally redundant from Criterion if it wasn't for the superior extras.
Another reason the BFI is superior is that it has lossless audio for both versions. Criterion seems to only be providing lossless audio on 1 version of each film, even if the video is HD. The BFI Play Time also provides the international soundtrack in lossless, whereas the Criterion Blu-Ray just had it as Dolby Digital; the Criterion reissue will likely carry over this same lossy track.

I find it incredibly disappointing for Criterion that Criterion has very often shrugged off lossless audio for alternate cuts & additional feature films (The Underneath, Killer's Kiss, Murder A La Mod, etc.). I understand when dealing with alternate cuts, they may not all have been restored to the same quality, but they should each be presented in HD with lossless audio. I'm quite disappointed that Criterion did the same thing with My Darling Clementine, not providing lossless audio on the preview cut.

User avatar
tenia
Ask Me About My Bassoon
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:13 am

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#87 Post by tenia » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:52 am

Lossy sound and no SDH subs on bonus movies is something I asked Criterion about by email a couple of months ago, following the roadshow reconstruction of IAMMMMW having no SDH subs and Cronenberg's Stereo and Soderbergh's The Underneath having lossy sound (and Stereo no SDH subs).

I never got any answer to this request, but even if I can understand the necessity of maximising disc space for the main feature, I do believe that this type of extras are not regular extras should be treated as the main feature.
Even Killer's Kiss only got lossy sound but fortunately had SDH subs.

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#88 Post by MichaelB » Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:25 am

My own policy as a producer is to treat short films/alternative cuts as though they were as important as the main feature - for instance, the Walerian Borowczyk shorts, the alternative framing of Don Siegel's The Killers etc.

User avatar
manicsounds
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:58 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#89 Post by manicsounds » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:02 am

"Godzilla King Of The Monsters" The English version had PCM mono and English SDH, a rarity for a bonus film.

Zot!
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:09 am

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#90 Post by Zot! » Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:17 am

The sound issue is similarly disappointing, but uprezzed SD when suitable HD material is available is just negligent. Criterion just porting the SC box with a new cover design is really lazy.

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#91 Post by MichaelB » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:06 am

"Exists" ≠ "available". If a master isn't actually owned by the rightsholder, it may not be possible to license it - or the owner might want much more money than the label is prepared to pay.

Obviously, I've no idea what the situation is here, but there are plenty of parallels - for instance, the crappy UK version of Citizen Kane (I understand the Warner Bros restoration wasn't licensable), Blue Underground not licensing its correctly-framed master of The Bird with the Crystal Plumage to Arrow, and so on.
Last edited by MichaelB on Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
EddieLarkin
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:25 am

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#92 Post by EddieLarkin » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:19 am

If StudioCanal had any say in the deal between Criterion and the Tati estate, I suppose they may have specified that they could only use the masters that they themselves would be using internationally.

User avatar
MichaelB
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 6:20 pm
Location: Worthing
Contact:

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#93 Post by MichaelB » Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:21 am

EddieLarkin wrote:If StudioCanal had any say in the deal between Criterion and the Tati estate, I suppose they may have specified that they could only use the masters that they themselves would be using internationally.
Indeed - that's equally plausible.

Zot!
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:09 am

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#94 Post by Zot! » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:01 pm

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but isn't the most likely plausibility that they simply thought the SC port would satisfy most customers and require little additional curating? It's not like this is a bad package, after all, and I'll be the first to admit that I don't know the value of the flawed/missing bits (having not seen them), but it's flaws are supremely irritating, considering this thing had he possibility of being definitive with just a little tweaking.

Brianruns10
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#95 Post by Brianruns10 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:21 pm

MichaelB wrote:
EddieLarkin wrote:If StudioCanal had any say in the deal between Criterion and the Tati estate, I suppose they may have specified that they could only use the masters that they themselves would be using internationally.
Indeed - that's equally plausible.
Though if that were the case, frankly I would've rather Criterion said "No Thanks." Because it really chafes me that now all these films are bundled in a box, full of flawed transfers. I mean this from the company that waited YEARS to get suitable elements for "The Man Who Knew Too Much." Releasing an SD master of a film for which an HD master exists is just shoddy.

It's really disappointing, because I've yearned to get a quality, definitive release of Jour De Fete, not to mention Tati's other titles. This was seriously going to be a first day buy for me. Now, quite honestly, I'm not sure I want it at all. Because I don't want to support these offerings from Criterion that are sloppy, shoddy repackagings. I'd rather spend my money on their more stellar releases.

User avatar
StevenJ0001
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 12:02 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#96 Post by StevenJ0001 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:40 pm

I can't seem to locate a BFI blu-ray set of all the films on Amazon UK, only a DVD set. Are the blus only available individually?

User avatar
swo17
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#97 Post by swo17 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:41 pm

Yes, only individually. And they're all OOP, so good luck!

User avatar
StevenJ0001
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 12:02 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#98 Post by StevenJ0001 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:50 pm

swo17 wrote:Yes, only individually. And they're all OOP, so good luck!
I just realized that!! Oh well, the ebay treasure hunt begins...

Pepsi
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:01 pm

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#99 Post by Pepsi » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:46 pm

Second hand sellers have it on amazon.uk:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jour-f" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;ête-Blu-ray-Jacques-Tati/dp/B00911MH2I/ref=sr_1_4?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1412962553&sr=1-4&keywords=Jacques+Tati

User avatar
StevenJ0001
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 12:02 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Re: 110-112, 439, 729-731 The Complete Jacques Tati

#100 Post by StevenJ0001 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:19 pm

Thanks!

Post Reply