663 Shoah

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
kinjitsu
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:39 pm
Location: Uffa!

663 Shoah

#1 Post by kinjitsu » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:02 pm

Shoah

Image Image

Over a decade in the making, Claude Lanzmann’s nine-hour-plus opus is a monumental investigation of the unthinkable: the murder of more than six million Jews by the Nazis. Using no archival footage, Lanzmann instead focuses on first-person testimonies (of survivors and former Nazis, as well as other witnesses), employing a circular, free-associative method in assembling them. The intellectual yet emotionally overwhelming Shoah is not a film about excavating the past but an intensive portrait of the ways in which the past is always present, and it is inarguably one of the most important cinematic works of all time.

DIRECTOR-APPROVED SPECIAL EDITION:

• New, restored 4K digital film transfer, with uncompressed monaural soundtrack on the Blu-ray edition
• Three additional films by director Claude Lanzmann: A Visitor from the Living (1999, 68 minutes), Sobibor, October 14, 1943, 4 p.m. (2001, 102 minutes), and The Karski Report (2010, 54 minutes)
• New conversation between critic Serge Toubiana and Lanzmann
• Interview with Lanzmann about A Visitor from the Living and Sobibor
• New conversation between associate director of photography Caroline Champetier and filmmaker Arnaud Desplechin
• Trailer
• PLUS: A booklet featuring an essay by critic Kent Jones and writings by Lanzmann
Last edited by swo17 on Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Minkin
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#2 Post by Minkin » Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:10 pm

Shoah will include The Karski Report and A Visitor from the Living (correct me if I'm wrong. These were the other two documentaries that were made from additional footage when making Shoah).

Plus we were all called freaks for typing away online with this news (thanks MC).

User avatar
TMDaines
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm
Location: Stretford, Manchester

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#3 Post by TMDaines » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:44 am

Minkin wrote:Shoah will include The Karski Report and A Visitor from the Living (correct me if I'm wrong. These were the other two documentaries that were made from additional footage when making Shoah).
Doh, I'll take the credit for this one given the fact that my copy of MoC's Shoah arrived less than a week ago. Oh well, this is one that I actually need for my Holocaust module. It looks like Criterion will be going well above and beyond anyway, with Blu-ray and all, in which case I won't mind upgrading too much.

Calvin
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#4 Post by Calvin » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:00 am

I wonder if Criterion will try and squeeze Shoah + extras onto three Blu-Ray discs or if they'll make it a four-disc release. Either way, it's set to be a pretty expensive release.

User avatar
Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#5 Post by Gregory » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:11 am

Anyone else remember what New Yorker's MSRP was for their barebones PAL-to-NTSC 4-DVD Shoah set?
SpoilerShow
$150.
I thought that bordered on the exploitive for a release like that one. Especially considering there were rarely if ever any good discounts on New Yorker DVDs to help bring a set like that within reach for people.

User avatar
Max von Mayerling
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:02 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Forthcoming: Shoah

#6 Post by Max von Mayerling » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:06 pm

Hopefully, the Shoah set will also include "Sobibor, October 14, 1943, 4 p.m.", the third "short" (it's 95 minutes - longer than plenty of features) that Lanzmann made from the footage. He's apparently working on a 4th film using the footage, but of course it seems highly unlikely that the new one would be included.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/m ... movie.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
htshell
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:15 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#7 Post by htshell » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:45 pm

It was stated that the three films that Lanzmann made from the footage would be included. I was trying to figure out what the third was.

User avatar
Max von Mayerling
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:02 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#8 Post by Max von Mayerling » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:13 pm

Fantastic. That's almost 3 & 1/2 hours of additional material across the three shorter films. The Karski Report is 48 minutes and A Visitor From the Living is 65 minutes. And it looks like they cover some pretty intense subject matter.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#9 Post by knives » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:17 pm

Any who has seen the film(s) are they as offensive and idiotic as their creator?

User avatar
matrixschmatrix
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#10 Post by matrixschmatrix » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:32 pm

Is Lanzmann an asshole? I can't find anything about his personality or politics one way or the other on a brief search, except apparently that he thinks Hitler should be regarded as an insoluble enigma of evil rather than the product of a specific historical place and environment, which seems kind of dumb.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#11 Post by knives » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:38 pm

He's made claims that he thinks all of the Jewish people should have died in the Holocaust and just in general seems to be working from a self promotion standpoint with him as the carrier of all knowledge.

User avatar
Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#12 Post by Gregory » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:39 pm

Source please.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#13 Post by knives » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:43 pm

I don't have an Interview source handy, but several people I know who have gone to showings have said he said that. I just remembered though, not that this changes anything, but he said that as a teleological extinction.

User avatar
Gregory
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#14 Post by Gregory » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:47 pm

Hearsay — not remotely believable, in my view.
For the sake of argument, if he'd said that at showings, there would be transcription of the comments available.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#15 Post by knives » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Probably. All the same what I've heard of him as a person is grotesque, but if the films don't show that I would like to know.

User avatar
mfunk9786
Under Chris' Protection
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#16 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:54 pm

The guy who made Hoop Dreams thinks that basketball is horrible and black kids should be barred from playing the game.

User avatar
Max von Mayerling
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:02 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#17 Post by Max von Mayerling » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:56 pm

I've watched Shoah a couple times and I don't think either of those statements characterize anything in that film. I have not seen the shorter films, but I find it unlikely that they express those viewpoints - if they are like Shoah, they consist almost entirely of the subjects answering his questions, which are frequently designed to get the subject to open up - and the subjects include Nazis who were at concentration camps.

He has strong opinions about the subject matter and its treatment, but I haven't heard anything that would lead me to conclude he is promoting himself as "the carrier of all knowledge."

User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#18 Post by swo17 » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:56 pm

Shoah is pretty universally regarded as one of the most humane, least exploitative treatments of the Holocaust on film.

User avatar
med
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:58 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#19 Post by med » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:57 pm

knives, don't you think that if person of Lanzmann's renown had a habit of making such terrible comments in public that it would be fairly well known? Are you sure you're not thinking of someone else?

User avatar
TMDaines
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm
Location: Stretford, Manchester

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#20 Post by TMDaines » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:01 pm

Calvin wrote:I wonder if Criterion will try and squeeze Shoah + extras onto three Blu-Ray discs or if they'll make it a four-disc release. Either way, it's set to be a pretty expensive release.
I reckon three discs: two for Shoah and a further one for the additional films plus any extras. Hopefully this will mean it can be between $80-100 RRP. Judging by speculation in previous threads, people have tended to overshoot when estimating the number of discs and the price point for previous big sets, i.e. Berlin Alexanderplatz, and space is at a less of a premium on Blu-ray, so I made this estimate fairly conservative.

User avatar
Max von Mayerling
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:02 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#21 Post by Max von Mayerling » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:04 pm

It is pretty easy to pull up articles about Lanzmann from the New Yorker and the New York Times from the past couple of years that include quotes from him. He also has a recently published memoir (which I have not read). While one might not agree with everything he says, I suspect you would be hard pressed to pull a quote that could be characterized as "grotesque."

User avatar
Max von Mayerling
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:02 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#22 Post by Max von Mayerling » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:07 pm

In terms of length, for reference, I think the three films in the Fanny & Alexander 3-blu ray set clock in at a total of 610 minutes. Shoah plus the three other films would clock in at 752 minutes.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#23 Post by knives » Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:47 pm

med wrote:knives, don't you think that if person of Lanzmann's renown had a habit of making such terrible comments in public that it would be fairly well known? Are you sure you're not thinking of someone else?
I'm 100% sure it is Lanzmann. I've had two freinds go to Q&A showings with him and the first simply complained his general demeanor (being unfocused and unwilling to answer certain questions) and the second brought up the carrier thing with Lanzmann being asked about several other portrayals (I believe the original question was supposed to be about statements he made on Spielberg, but the friend in question said he brought up several other filmmakers including Godard, Holland, Polanski, and a few others whose name passes me at the moment) and went off on them as being terible for a variety of reasons supposedly even contradicting himself though I don't know how in this context. The extinction thing is the only thing that's from an unreliable source for me as I read it over at the AVC recently via a commentator who went to a showing of the new short this spring.

User avatar
Max von Mayerling
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:02 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#24 Post by Max von Mayerling » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:23 pm

I have no doubt that Lanzmann might have said some very critical things about any of these filmmakers, and, in fact, I know he has said critical things about Spielberg and Godard. (I don't know what, specifically, he might have said about Holland or Polanski.) In a December 6, 2010 article in the NYT, he says that he deeply dislikes "Schindler's List" because it is "very sentimental" and "false" because it offers an uplifting ending. Without wanting to get into an argument about the pros and cons of "Schindler's List," I don't think that is a completely unreasonable view, I don't think it is "grotesque," and I don't think it suggests that he thinks he is the "carrier of all knowledge." As for Godard, he has made some fairly dismissive comments about "Shoah," because, as I understand it, Godard has objected to the fact that Lanzmann deliberately did not use historical footage and only shows the now largely empty fields where the camps were located. In other words, Godard objected to Lanzmann's fundamental approach to the film. (See Richard Brody's book at page 511.) (But apparently Godard has said more charitable things about Shoah since.) Given this is the case, it is not entirely shocking that Lanzmann would perhaps go off on Godard. I'm not saying he was right in whatever he said about Godard, or that his view of "Schindler's List" should be accepted by all, but these strike me as legitimate issues raised by someone who cares deeply about how these historical events are portrayed.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Forthcoming Lists Discussion and Random Speculation Vol.

#25 Post by knives » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:33 pm

I'd agree with him on the Beard's film and even if I disagree with the other directors obviously people can have different opinions from myself. The problem was as told to me was that Lanzmann made complaints not only about the qualities of the films, but also about the fact that they were not his portrayals of the Holocaust and counter to his conception of it (despite the fact that Polanski had lived through the Holocaust just to give a nugget of why I found those comments absurd) so therefore are lies. It is the suggestion that only his view of the Holocaust is the right one that puts me off largely of his films.

Post Reply