556 Senso

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Fred Holywell
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Re: 556 Senso

#51 Post by Fred Holywell » Tue Jan 03, 2012 5:51 am

The section of the 'Opera' sequence cut from "The Wanton Countess" (Granger & Valli in box, etc.) survives in an alternate English-language version entitled "Livia". It's been uploaded to YouTube.

EDIT: Updated YouTube link.
Last edited by Fred Holywell on Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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zedz
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Re: 556 Senso

#52 Post by zedz » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:16 pm

I can't imagine somebody's found a pristine visual source for the obscure Livia that happens to have rough sound - has somebody just synced up the English soundtrack for this scene with the Italian visuals?

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Fred Holywell
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Re: 556 Senso

#53 Post by Fred Holywell » Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:47 pm

From what I've been able to learn, "Senso" was shot with live sound for virtually all of Farley Granger's scenes, and likely for some other scenes, as well. How many others, I don't know, but there is at least one photo of Valli with a boom mic over her head during a scene that Granger's not in. Most of Granger's dialogue sounds live to me, as do the few German lines. There are some 'wild lines' where Granger's character is obviously voiced by another actor, probably because he'd returned to the U.S before dubbing was done. Most, if not all, of Valli's English dialogue -- in scenes without Granger -- sounds (and looks) dubbed to me.

As for "Livia", I saw part of it on VHS a long time ago (10+ years), and I remember it looking almost as good as the Criterion "Senso". Strong, true colors, much better than the brown print of "Senso" that used to run in rep houses. It seemed to be transferred from an original Technicolor print. The front titles were all in English, including the text that detailed the set-up of the story. Unfortunately, the quality of the tape was poor, and the sound and image deteriorated as it went along (snow, noise, etc.), so I saw no more than half of it, if that. But it wasn't a reshoot of "Senso", it was clearly an edited, English-language version. (To clarify, when I wrote 'alternate' in my previous post, I simply meant an alternate English-language cut, not an alternate filming or restaging.)

Criterion should have released "Livia" on disc, rather than the faded Eastmancolor "TWC", in my opinion. The fact that they didn't probably means they couldn't get the rights to it, or didn't want to pay the money the rights holder wanted. I can't remember the name of the company that put out the VHS, but it was a no-name brand I didn't recognize, and it was American (NTSC). I do remember that the tape label had the "The Wanton Countess" written on it. That was the weird thing -- when the title "Livia" came up on the screen. It's what set me off researching the film a bit, trying to find out how many versions of the thing there were, etc.

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Fred Holywell
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Re: 556 Senso

#54 Post by Fred Holywell » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:19 am

"The Wanton Countess" in IB Technicolor? I haven't heard of it, but maybe...

According to Farley Granger, "The Wanton Countess" was a version concocted by a west coast TV syndicator back in the late-1960s. They cut the English-language edition down to just over 90 minutes to fit into a 2-hour time slot. I'd expect it to have been printed in some version of Eastmancolor, rather than IB Tech, but it's a possibility -- the company did make prints for television at the time, as I recall.

"Livia" is definitely a different version, though. There are scenes in one, that aren't in the other, and "Livia" runs about 10 minutes longer than "TWC". From what I've learned, "Livia" was released in the mid-1950s. It would be logical that Technicolor handled the printing on it just as they did on "Senso". The VHS version I saw certainly looked like IB Tech.

Of course, it's entirely possible that the English-language version I know as "Livia" was titled "The Wanton Countess" in some markets. I don't remember seeing anything suggesting that, but it's a sensible theory. And it would be an additional reason to think that there were some IB Tech prints of "TWC" in circulation at one time.
Last edited by Fred Holywell on Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jonathan S
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Re: 556 Senso

#55 Post by Jonathan S » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:15 am

If it's of any help, the print I saw theatrically in the UK (probably London) in May 1987 definitely had English dialogue - I noted it down at the time, commenting on the obvious English dubbing even of Granger for some lines, though unfortunately I didn't record if the print had any title other than Senso. Judging from the comments I noted about the colour, it must have been quite vivid, but I don't know what kind of print it was.

The first time I saw the Italian version was on the BBC's Film Club a few years later, introduced by John Francis Lane who apologised for the quality of the print with burned-in subs, though it was actually a bit better than the UK video issue a decade or so later!

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Fred Holywell
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Re: 556 Senso

#56 Post by Fred Holywell » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:15 am

David, I've got to track down Elaine Mancini's excellent resource on Visconti to provide some specifics on "Livia" for you; that may take a few days. I'm also hoping to unearth the VHS I mentioned to fashion some screencaps of the title cards. No guarantee it will even play in the machine but, if i find it, I'll try my best. Until then, here's a jpg of an original "Livia" one-sheet, Argentinian to be specific (likely a Spanish-language print). Doesn't have a date on it, that I can see, but looks similar to the 1954 promo art, so probably close to, if not actually from, that year (the seller says it is).

Image

Regarding
Dennis Lim and another American I know definitely saw TWC in New York during the sixties in IB prints
they say that the English-language prints they saw had the title "The Wanton Countess" on them, and not something else, even "Senso"? I'm curious, as I haven't been able to find any evidence (posters, reviews, newspaper ads, etc.) of the title existing before 1968, and then only as a distributed-to-TV entity (Granger's autobiography; a 1968 review by Andrew Sarris in "The Village Voice"; some promotional material). Even the HFA print has the title "Senso" on it (the one in the Criterion set). And, as I said, the video I saw was packaged as "TWC", but surprisingly had the title "Livia" on screen. This is interesting; I had figured the title (such a lousy one) was dreamed up mainly to appeal to a TV soap-opera viewing crowd.
Last edited by Fred Holywell on Sat May 26, 2018 11:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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ellipsis7
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Re: 556 Senso

#57 Post by ellipsis7 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:19 am

Sight and Sound review entitled "SENSO (THE WANTON COUNTESS)" by Alain Tanner from 1957 (Sight & Sound XXVII:2, 1957, pp.92-93) appears to be the first mention of the English language version under that title for theatrical release....
It is extremely difficult to arrive at any final conclusion about a work like Senso (Archway) after only one viewing. In the first place Senso is not an easy film to grasp... ...The version shown in this country [UK], however (under the title The Wanton Countess), adds immeasurably to the difficulties of a fair consideration of the film. The dubbing is terrible; and even in the scenes which were shot in English specially for this version, half the dialogue is unintelligible. Even before the film reached this country, the Italian censor had insisted on alterations in the script and the removal of several scenes. Since then there have been further extensive cuts, amounting to some minutes' running time, and as inexplicable as they seem unjustified. Inevitably the structure of the film has been irreparably damaged; and the movement is jerky and often apparently inconsequential.
...giving a pretty decent account of the genesis of WANTON COUNTESS...

BBFC confirm this release...
Type: Film ~ Date: 23/08/1957 ~ Company: Archway Film Dist Ltd ~ Cuts: Yes, passed with cuts ~ Title: THE WANTON COUNTESS
According to Geoffrey Nowell-Smith in the filmography appended to his LUCHINO VISCONTI (BFI) book, 'a print of the English language version is preserved in the [BFI] National Film Archive in London. The film was released in Britain in a shortened English-language version (91 minutes) under the title THE WANTON COUNTESS.' He has SENSO running at 121 minutes..

CRITERION has SENSO running at 123 minutes, and THE WANTON COUNTESS at 93 minutes which fits... TWC is 3/4 the length of SENSO!...

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zedz
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Re: 556 Senso

#58 Post by zedz » Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:54 pm

Curiouser and curiouser - that poster for the (supposedly English language) Livia is in Italian. Was Livia an alternative release title for Senso in more than one language / market?

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Fred Holywell
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Re: 556 Senso

#59 Post by Fred Holywell » Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:35 pm

Many thanks, ellipsis, that "Sight & Sound" review certainly confirms "TWC" as existing before 1968. Very much appreciated.

As for the Argentinian poster,
that poster for the (supposedly English language) Livia is in Italian
it's in Spanish, not Italian (except "un film lux"): "Una Inolvidable Historia de Amor!" ("An Unforgettable Story of Love!") and "color por technicolor" ("color by technicolor"). No indication it's an English-language version -- I'd figure it's Spanish dubbed.

Looks like I'll definitely have to get some screencaps of that video to beef up my claim about an English-language version titled "Livia". Wish me luck...

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Fred Holywell
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Re: 556 Senso

#60 Post by Fred Holywell » Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:24 am

the poster is in Spanish as Ellipsis points out.
(cough, cough) That was I with the handy-dandy Spanish translation. I wouldn't mention it, but all those years of Spanish-language courses had to be good for something.
It looks like the original rights for TWC (Lux? Titanus) expired and a West Coast copyright speculator took it over, including the rubbishy Eastman reprinting.
It was Lux, and that makes much good sense, David. For the curious and/or completist, here's part of the West Coast distributor's ad. To complicate matters, they date the film as 1964 and offer a running time of 110 minutes! I, for one, am not even going to consider that for fear of wading deeper into the intercontinental movie morass.

Image

As for Farley,
he is definitely on the wrong track with TWC as a late 60s enterprise.
we should probably forgive him any misleading statements, as even Andrew Sarris in his "Village Voice" column of June 27, 1968 says something not that unsimilar:
Luchino Visconti's "Senso" had never really been released in America before, but now the Elgin Theatre (at Eighth Avenue and 19th Street) has unveiled a version Visconti himself has approved. Sharp-eyed televiewers may have caught an abridged version of "Senso" under the lurid title of "The Wanton Countess," a tale all too typical of Visconti's films in America.

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goblinfootballs
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Re: 556 Senso

#61 Post by goblinfootballs » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:39 pm


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Drucker
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Re: 556 Senso

#62 Post by Drucker » Tue Oct 09, 2018 2:54 pm

Looks pretty good. Saw the 1993 or so restoration projected the other month and the Criterion seemed to match it, and this doesn't appear far enough. A milky, white-leaning color palette affects the whole film.

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tenia
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Re: 556 Senso

#63 Post by tenia » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:17 pm

Another Ritrovata'ed color grading. It doesn't seem too bad, but some shots still give it away (like at 1:06, and a sky that reminds me of their work on the King Hu's movies). But this is just a Youtube trailer.

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Drucker
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Re: 556 Senso

#64 Post by Drucker » Tue Oct 09, 2018 3:20 pm

It's probably going to be like the Hulots, where their color default color grading isn't too far off from the actual unique color timing of originals. Just a thought.

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andyli
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Re: 556 Senso

#65 Post by andyli » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:44 pm

Not too different from my memories of watching the Criterion blu-ray. What makes this a new restoration then?

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senseabove
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Re: 556 Senso

#66 Post by senseabove » Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:56 am

Not that it's worth a whooole lot to compare to a YouTube video clip, but one of the DVDBeaver caps is in the trailer, though not quite an exact frame match:
https://youtu.be/aHMzrQytQkk?t=35
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film3/blu-ray_ ... -ray_7.jpg

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tenia
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Re: 556 Senso

#67 Post by tenia » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:05 am

It might just be the 2009 restoration touring again, since it was already made through the Film Foundation by L'immagine Ritrovata.
I have no idea who did the previous Studio Canal restoration, but seeing how the Criterion one has SC in the technical credits ("Film restoration: Studio Canal, Centro Sperimentale di Cinematografia/Cineteca Nazionale, Cineteca di Bologna/L'Immagine Ritrovata. With funding provided by Gucci, the Film Foundation, and Comitato Italia 150."), and how the 2 discs seem to share the same basis and to be mostly (only ?) set apart by the color timing, it might be actually the same restoration used for both, but re-graded by Canal for their release.

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Drucker
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Re: 556 Senso

#68 Post by Drucker » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:39 am

This is a new restoration. When they played it on 35mm in the Visconti retro over the summer, they announced they had attempted to debut the new resto as part of the series but were denied because it would make its premiere elsewhwre.

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movielocke
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Re: 556 Senso

#69 Post by movielocke » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:14 pm

After this and white vertigo I’m looking forward to visiting Italy some day to check out these amazing green skies that are also sometimes blue

Constable
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Re: 556 Senso

#70 Post by Constable » Sat Feb 06, 2021 3:42 pm

I'm watching Scorsese's documentary My Voyage to Italy and at one point he talks about Senso. He goes over the film and then when he gets to the scene where the countess gives the Austrian officer the red chest holding the gold coins meant to fund the revolution Scorsese says, "This moment is the heart of the entire movie. Not many other directors would have had such total belief in style as Visconti has in this film. He uses it to go to dangerously emotional extremes."

I'm wondering, what do you think he meant by the last sentence? I think I know, but I want to see if we read it the same way. I'll hold my opinion for now, because I don't want this to be a leading question.

Stefan Andersson
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Re: 556 Senso

#71 Post by Stefan Andersson » Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:50 pm

An article on Senso by Don Ranvaud in Monthly Film Bulletin, April 1983, mentions two scenes preserved in an English 16mm print /(Harris/Films) but absent from 35mm ones.
One scene is about Livia hiding Franz in a granary. Franz moves to Livia´s bedroom before her husband can find him in the granary. Approx. one minute long.
The other scene shows a meeting between Livia and a man asking for money she has in safekeeping for the revolutionaries, who are close by. Approx. one and a half minute long.

I haven´t seen any of the Senso blurays. Are these scenes included in any bluray version?

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Fred Holywell
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Re: 556 Senso

#72 Post by Fred Holywell » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:21 pm

Stefan Andersson wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:50 pm
An article on Senso by Don Ranvaud in Monthly Film Bulletin, April 1983, mentions two scenes preserved in an English 16mm print /(Harris/Films) but absent from 35mm ones.
One scene is about Livia hiding Franz in a granary. Franz moves to Livia´s bedroom before her husband can find him in the granary. Approx. one minute long.
The other scene shows a meeting between Livia and a man asking for money she has in safekeeping for the revolutionaries, who are close by. Approx. one and a half minute long.

I haven´t seen any of the Senso blurays. Are these scenes included in any bluray version?
They're on the Criterion DVD/Blu. Probably put back when the film was restored years ago. I've a vague memory of seeing a print where they weren't there, back in the early 1980s, then being surprised when I eventually saw them later on.

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Stefan Andersson
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Re: 556 Senso

#73 Post by Stefan Andersson » Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:21 pm

Fred Holywell wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:21 pm
Stefan Andersson wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:50 pm
An article on Senso by Don Ranvaud in Monthly Film Bulletin, April 1983, mentions two scenes preserved in an English 16mm print /(Harris/Films) but absent from 35mm ones.
One scene is about Livia hiding Franz in a granary. Franz moves to Livia´s bedroom before her husband can find him in the granary. Approx. one minute long.
The other scene shows a meeting between Livia and a man asking for money she has in safekeeping for the revolutionaries, who are close by. Approx. one and a half minute long.

I haven´t seen any of the Senso blurays. Are these scenes included in any bluray version?
They're on the Criterion DVD/Blu. Probably put back when the film was restored years ago. I've a vague memory of seeing a print where they weren't there, back in the early 1980s, then being surprised when I eventually saw them later on.

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Hi!
OK, many thanks for confirming that these scenes are included!

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