535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

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MichaelB
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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#51 Post by MichaelB » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:20 pm

PfR73 wrote:Reading about The Mikado, that may be it.
Yes, that's definitely it. No question.

The specific reference is to the character of Ko-Ko, the Lord High Executioner, who specialises in executing pretty much anyone he doesn't like, for the most trivial reasons.

The relevant text is here.

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PfR73
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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#52 Post by PfR73 » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:27 pm

Yeah, that makes the line make perfect sense to me now. Thanks!

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colinr0380
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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#53 Post by colinr0380 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:20 pm

As memorably parodied by Family Guy! (This might be better in the Topsy-Turvy list but one of the most amusing commentary tracks for that series was for the episode Patriot Games, about the family visiting Britain with lots of jokes about fey young British gentleman, which inspires one of the people on the track to start talking about how must they disliked Topsy-Turvy for being a classic example of boring British period drama. Unfortunately it then gets pointed out to him that one of the people doing some character voices on the episode was Martin Savage, who was actually in Topsy-Turvy!)

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Mr Sausage
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Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence (Nagisa Oshima, 1983)

#54 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon May 23, 2016 6:21 am

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Gregory
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Re: Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence (Nagisa Oshima, 1983)

#55 Post by Gregory » Mon May 23, 2016 3:56 pm

I can't recall if this was mentioned anywhere in the Criterion release, but this was reportedly one of Cassavetes' favorite films of its era. He generally thought Bowie was great as an actor but in this particular film he considered Ryuichi Sakamoto to be even better.
I haven't seen this in a couple of years but if memory serves, Sakamoto comes across as a natural screen presence.

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Big Ben
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Re: Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence (Nagisa Oshima, 1983)

#56 Post by Big Ben » Mon May 23, 2016 4:43 pm

This is one of my favorite anti-war films and the perfect counter to what some critics of Oshima have said about him being incredibly cold. One of the final shots of Takeshi Kitano is one of the most heartbreaking in Oshima's entire filmography.

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Re: Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence (Nagisa Oshima, 1983)

#57 Post by beamish13 » Mon May 23, 2016 4:53 pm

Sakamoto Ryuichi's score is absolutely sublime, and I love his other collaborations with producer Jeremy Thomas, too.

It probably wouldn't have fit in with the rest of the film, but the vocal version of the theme song that Sakamoto made with frequent musical partner David Sylvian, "Forbidden Colours", is gorgeous as well.

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Re: Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence (Nagisa Oshima, 1983)

#58 Post by Soothsayer » Mon May 23, 2016 5:09 pm

beamish13 wrote:Sakamoto Ryuichi's score is absolutely sublime, and I love his other collaborations with producer Jeremy Thomas, too.

It probably wouldn't have fit in with the rest of the film, but the vocal version of the theme song that Sakamoto made with frequent musical partner David Sylvian, "Forbidden Colours", is gorgeous as well.
To bring it full circle, Sakamoto did an amazing live version of the theme with an occasional collaborator of Sylvian, Christian Fennesz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFC6QwJJMxo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence (Nagisa Oshima, 1983)

#59 Post by beamish13 » Mon May 23, 2016 5:28 pm

Has anyone read the novel that forms the basis for this film, Laurens van der Post's The Sower and the Seed? My local library has a copy, and I'm curious to see the approach that Paul Mayersberg and Oshima took when they adapted it.

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Re: Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence (Nagisa Oshima, 1983)

#60 Post by AfterTheRain » Mon May 23, 2016 8:24 pm

Needless to say, this is probably my favorite and maybe the most accessible Oshima film for me. I just love how the film slowly draws you into the atmosphere of the time and also exposes some of the contradictions of combat being played out in the POW camp. This is also my favorite David Bowie performance (R.I.P.) and the Ryuichi Sakamoto is absolutely hypnotic and haunting.

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ando
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Re: Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence (Nagisa Oshima, 1983)

#61 Post by ando » Sun May 29, 2016 11:44 pm

beamish13 wrote:Has anyone read the novel that forms the basis for this film, Laurens van der Post's The Sower and the Seed? My local library has a copy, and I'm curious to see the approach that Paul Mayersberg and Oshima took when they adapted it.
No, but thanks for posting the reference (downloading a copy now).

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Big Ben
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Re: Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence (Nagisa Oshima, 1983)

#62 Post by Big Ben » Mon May 30, 2016 11:00 am

I believe that Laurens van der Post was appreciative of the way Oshima and Mayersberg adapted the story. This is said somewhere in the supplements for the Criterion Edition.

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ando
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Re: Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence (Nagisa Oshima, 1983)

#63 Post by ando » Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:01 pm

Having seen only fragments of the film over the years, (regrettably) not getting to the source (novel) of the screenplay and understanding very little Japanese I decided to watch the film without English subs initially. The arguments around which both sides are in contention (aside from the main conflict of The War) seems so petty - almost trivial in relation to the way the soldiers treat each other. It's difficult to determine if the condition of being confined escalates their brutality or if their individual and/or collective histories prevent at least a civil co-existence. Perhaps it's a combination, though given the turn of the narrative a stronger case seems to be made for the latter, whether it's relations between both sides of the conflict or within each camp.

But history, in either sense - and every sense, seems to be the bugaboo for all these men and the central theme of the film. The question is certainly not "To be or not be" as Yonoi poses to Celliers in the trial scene but what is it to be in any given community of men? Course, I could be dead off and a second viewing might alter this reading.
Last edited by ando on Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#64 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:03 am

Very often during the Chinese war and ensuing WW2 (even typically, perhaps) Japanese officers treated their own ordinary soldiers rather savagely.

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ando
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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#65 Post by ando » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:41 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:Very often during the Chinese war and ensuing WW2 (even typically, perhaps) Japanese officers treated their own ordinary soldiers rather savagely.
Well, it's seemingly apropos as the Japanese soldiers seemed incapable.of surmounting their history; just the opposite (as the film underlies) - they appear to be obsessed with it. Not that the British are any less moored. Celliers' iconoclasm is ultimately as fated as Yonoi's fascism.

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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#66 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:48 am

I wish Criterion (or any reputable company) would do a subbed release of Fumio KAMEI's amazing Fighting Soldiers (a documentary, with some re-enacted material) -- which (almost maybe) looks like an anti-militarist, anti-war film - which was financed by the Japanese military and got Kamei in deep trouble (later on during the war, he landed up in prison, the only director to receive this distinction).

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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#67 Post by ando » Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:30 pm

I'll be on the lookout for Fighting Soldiers. Thanks.

Incidentally, I didn't feel that last scene in MCML was necessary. Why go back 5 years later? We - at least, I - thought I understood what the Merry Christmas gesture meant to all players involved; who was savvy/pliant enough in character to survive the war, perish with their rigid/outmoded attitudes or blend back into the fold of the conformists. Yonoi walking off after clipping a lock of the dead Celliers' hair, securing it in his uniform and saluting him was conclusion enough for me. But I suppose the Lawrence bookend- narration was obligatory.

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Big Ben
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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#68 Post by Big Ben » Mon Jun 06, 2016 7:45 pm

I'll have to disagree with you there. I think it's one of the most important in the film. It serves as a perfect counter to people claiming Oshima was a cold director. I realize it doesn't take much to say "War is bad and we should avoid it" but it takes a great deal of effort to say how awful it is in one frame as opposed to an entire film which is what I believe Oshima there. The scene and the frame IS the point of the film.

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ando
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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#69 Post by ando » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:36 pm

Big Ben wrote:I'll have to disagree with you there. I think it's one of the most important in the film. It serves as a perfect counter to people claiming Oshima was a cold director. I realize it doesn't take much to say "War is bad and we should avoid it" but it takes a great deal of effort to say how awful it is in one frame as opposed to an entire film which is what I believe Oshima there. The scene and the frame IS the point of the film.
I don't follow. Are you saying a recap was necessary?

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Big Ben
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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#70 Post by Big Ben » Tue Jun 07, 2016 1:52 am

ando wrote: I don't follow. Are you saying a recap was necessary?
I'm saying I personally believe the entire final sequence with Lawrence/Conti and Hara/Kitano is entirely necessary. Recap and all.

This quote here hammers home what I believe Oshima intended:
"You're the victim of men who think that they are right, just as one day, you and Captain Yanoi believed absolutely that you were right, but the truth is, of course that nobody's right.
There are no real winners of war. There are only victims of men who believe they are right. For this point to be driven home Hara and Lawrence MUST meet again.

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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#71 Post by ando » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:01 am

Big Ben wrote: There are no real winners of war. There are only victims of men who believe they are right. For this point to be driven home Hara and Lawrence MUST meet again.
Yeah, we do disagree. To my mind, silence, perhaps some saké and a handshake would have sufficed. Oh, and of course, a Merry Christmas, Mr. Lawrence.

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ando
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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#72 Post by ando » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:49 pm

Big Ben's thoughts on Oshima's conclusion got me wondering how Van Der Post ended his novel. The book, however, is a completely different experience - a Chrismas trilogy, in fact. Oshima's narrative structure, in retrospect, doesn't seem to resemble this approach at all.

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Boosmahn
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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#73 Post by Boosmahn » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:13 am

Saw this film a few nights ago and I'm still thinking about it, in particular the relationship between Yonoi and Celliers. Was Yonoi fascinated with the Major out of love? Respect? Both? I enjoy complex relationship dynamics like this. Not to mention the score (at first dissonant, then great), themes (basic but effective), and performances (hard-to-understand JapanEnglish aside). I must admit that I was watching it rather late, so a second viewing would do me a world of good.

This was the first movie by Oshima that I've watched; I think I'll try In the Realm of the Senses or Death by Hanging next.

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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#74 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:54 am

Boosmahn wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 3:13 am
Saw this film a few nights ago and I'm still thinking about it, in particular the relationship between Yonoi and Celliers. Was Yonoi fascinated with the Major out of love? Respect? Both?
I think it’s left ambiguous but what matters is a strange connection inexplicable to either man, one that Bowie finally trusts in the climactic kissing scene to overpower the ideologies and duties that mask whatever it is. It’s a powerful scene for many reasons up to and including the maturity of restraint in keeping the source of intent a mystery.

For what it’s worth, I hated In the Realm of the Senses but have liked or loved every other Oshima I’ve seen, with Death By Hanging the best (though prepare yourself for some surreal, satirical black comedy). The Man Who Left His Will On Film is probably my second favorite, but I’ll freely admit I don’t know how to explain why even to myself.

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knives
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Re: 535 Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence

#75 Post by knives » Sun Dec 29, 2019 11:21 am

The eclipse films are the best ones that Criterion has released so far.

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