182 Straw Dogs

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colinr0380
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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#126 Post by colinr0380 » Wed May 31, 2017 6:37 pm

Malickite wrote:Disappointed the "Dustin Hoffman on the Set of Straw Dogs" vintage featurette was dropped. I don't know why it would be, unless the Simon & Garfunkel music featured was too expensive to reacquire? Which doesn't really make sense since it's, I believe, the Graduate soundtrack versions which Criterion must have rights to since they have The Graduate. How would that work?
It was originally licensed from the BBC in the credits for the first DVD edition, so maybe that was a factor?

The other extra that looks to unfortunately be missing from the previous edition is the isolated score track, which is a shame although the Freemantle DVD & Blu-ray still have it.

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#127 Post by dwk » Wed May 31, 2017 9:19 pm

colinr0380 wrote: It was originally licensed from the BBC in the credits for the first DVD edition, so maybe that was a factor?
Since the Short Cuts Blu-ray upgrade also lost a BBC licensed special feature, I suspect that you are correct.

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#128 Post by cdnchris » Wed May 31, 2017 9:37 pm

I'll have to double check, but I'm pretty sure the feature removed for the new editions of The River was also from the BBC, just to add onto that.

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#129 Post by djproject » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:24 am

I saw the Linda Williams interview before I watched Straw Dogs (I already had the Criterion DVD no less ... found it used at a decent price). It's interesting to note whenever she talked about Psycho, the soundtrack and still images were used. Granted production stills or even actual frames from the film are more common to use as a shorthand reference in these visual essays. But still, I can't help but think it was to avoid legal complications, even though using a clip or two would have fallen under fair use.

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#130 Post by MichaelB » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:00 am

Criterion are very careful about this sort of thing. They dropped a video essay from All That Jazz for similar reasons.

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#131 Post by Minkin » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:39 pm


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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#132 Post by mfunk9786 » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:53 pm

We also would have accepted Svet Dogs

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#133 Post by domino harvey » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:56 pm

Pro-Basset Hound

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#134 Post by jsteffe » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:38 pm

Minkin wrote:Straw Svets
Maybe this is just me, but Svet's mention of Irreversible is unfortunate since the Gaspar Noe film looks quite poor in comparison. Straw Dogs is vastly more intelligent and functions as a tightly controlled drama. Peckinpah is a far better director of actors. Is anyone in Irreversible as emotionally complex as Susan George? (I think she's the real core of the film.) Peckinpah's editing and camerawork are also a little less show-offy and more precise in their effects.

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#135 Post by colinr0380 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:01 am

I'd agree - though I think Irreversible is a great piece of work, I'm not sure its one on the 'human' level, if that makes any sense! Noé is a very internal filmmaker, to the extent that I'm not sure that he understands (or at least wants to understand) the wider world in which his self-obsessed characters operate more than as an evocative backdrop to the individual crisis situation, usually between a love triangle of characters. We never really see the aftermath of that excrutiatingly drawn out (another key Noé trait!) assault of Bellucci, just the character being stretchered out of the tunnel comatose to inspire our 'hero's' sense of blind vengeance in the opening scenes, but then her character as the film goes on moves from victim to liberated woman juggling the attentions of friend and boyfriend, to metonym for any future victim (in the scene kissing with the plastic sheet/body bag of the shower between them), to almost an 'Earth mother' figure in the final 2001/Zardoz scene (strobing warning!), surrounded by children and nascently pregnant.

Even before it became impossible to ignore in extremely internal films like Enter The Void and Love, Noé seems much more interested in the individual reaction to events the overwhelms and transforms a character's worldview (Seul Contre Tous's incessant voice over and double-back ending factors in too). And he's also interested in the individual story being a grand metaphor for something, like the afterlife or in Irreversible's case the structure of the film going from all-male at one end to all-female at the other. The Gaspar Noé version of Straw Dogs would probably be something entirely from the Dustin Hoffman character's point of view (but I'd argue that Noé can be very interestingly complex when dealing with his frustratingly solipsistic protagonists - the leads of Seul Contre Tous and the recent Love are cut from incredibly similar cloth, just from different generations - even if that makes everyone else a cypher).

Whilst Peckinpah, for all his flaws, always seems like a 'social' filmmaker. He's interested in how groups of people interact together, and hurt each other. I'd argue that Peckinpah is as 'show-offy' in his own way as Noé, but the effects are added to enhance the audience's perspective on the mental state of the characters responding to their experiences rather than have the characters getting submitted to the metaphor into which they have been thrown as in Noé (I think the prime example of this for me is The Osterman Weekend, where the spy thriller material is incredibly weak, but it has a number of fantastic central scenes where Peckinpah can really get into the group dynamics of the bunch of friends being turned against one another. I think the Noé response to a similar lack of a core story would be embellishment of the environment around that central lack of narrative drive, as in Enter The Void).

Though I have to say that this isn't an either/or argument and its possible to find worth in both filmmaker's work. I find both Peckinpah and Noé fascinating! But they're pretty different and only linked here superficially through both Straw Dogs and Irreversible featuring powerful depictions of female victims of assault.
___

On that note I still find that central scene difficult but in an interesting way. I go back and forth on whether that second rape was necessary to show or not, though think in the end that it was. I suppose the usual approach to the scene is that after the uncomfortable ambivalence in showing Amy's reaction to her old boyfriend forcing himself on her, this second assault suggests that she immediately 'punished' by the film all over again, and has to be to 'clarify' the situation as 'bad' for the watching audience (as if they had not been aware) and for Amy herself. That ambivalent reaction of Amy, emotionally estranged from her husband, enduring the brutal attention of the ex-boyfriend is extremely upsetting not just for the violation but also because it suggests that Amy might find this one potential avenue open to her, an escape from her stifling life that she would never have agreed to but now that barrier has been shattered from the outside there is a tiny amount of remembered affection there, albeit couched in hideous coercion (its what the commentators on one of the DVDs describe as the difference between an act of violence between 'people with history' and one without that). Its what makes Amy's reaction so upsettingly complex and potentially inflammatory, but also so powerful too, in the way that maybe she's only used to affection alternately bound up with cruelty and this is just the physical expression of it rather than the mental one with David.

Then that second rape shatters even that small consolation and reasserts the violation as a horrific, unloving act of violence, in which Amy is used less for her body (as an object of lustful desires as in the first rape) but almost just as a object to forge a bond between members of the gang. He's a monster for having done this in the first place, but Charlie's reaction here is devastating too, having that (forced) reunion with his ex-girlfriend and then immediately being forced to submit himself to the needs of his mate. He's immediately fundamentally weak in that second moment (after trying to prove himself totally powerful and dominant in the first one) and has his own brief moment of, maybe delusional and in the moment hope (or at least remembrance and imperfect re-enaction of previous times) brutally shattered in a way similar to Amy.

It's such a complex scene of power dynamics (I love one of the commentators describing the action throughout, but particularly here, as "people thinking they are going to be able to act with greater restraint than they manage to"), and more than any other scene of this type that I've seen really gets into showing how the act of rape is as much an emotional violation as a physical one.

Then of course there are those fantastically brutal post-traumatic flashback edits throughout Amy's following scenes ("You can see...its not torn....at all") which show in no uncertain terms the lingering aftereffects of such an experience, and then how that in itself can affect the character's behaviour (and seep into Amy's reactions to other characters, particularly David and the town molester figure) after that. It often feels to me that the film never uses the character of Amy simply as a 'metaphor' (or as a conventional victim figure to be purely pitied by the film), and more as an individual character with her own reactions throughout, even if they might not be the 'societally right' ones to have had. Its a continuance of the approach taken to all of the conflicts throughout the film, both brutal but also compassionate in the sense that everyone's motivations in their interactions seem to be understood, if not condoned.
Last edited by colinr0380 on Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:12 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#136 Post by tenia » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:14 am

Irréversible has been looking for me as a cheap comparison point for every movie extensively featuring an on-screen rape scene.

But as you write, in the case of Straw Dogs, the movies are vastly different and, in the case of Irréversible, they're all the more different because of their construction. Irréversible's rape technically doesn't have so much of a real internal impact, since this impact is chronogically constrained in its very first part. It only has a limited impact through the viewer, who can watch the "previous life" unfolding afterwards and think to himself "what a pity for these ruined lives".

There are no such things really in Straw Dogs which is all power play and dynamics in a more realistic vein while Noé quickly focuses on the love triangle between his more simple (as always) characters.

I like a lot Irréversible, and think it's probably Noé's best movie by far, but it's a very different movie from Straw Dogs and except for containing an on-screen rape scene, there actually isn't much of a comparison between the two.

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#137 Post by colinr0380 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:43 pm

And also the key difference is that while the rape in Irreversible inspires a hot-headed act of vengeance on an innocent party (the fire extinguisher versus head moment in the club, as the actual rapist looks on in the background. But of course that all only becomes apparent on a second viewing), in Straw Dogs Amy never tells David about her rape at all. That's perhaps the most damning moment of the whole relationship in that it seems that Amy has nobody left to turn to (no husband, nor the ex-boyfriend), and in a film that is so focused on people interacting with each other it feels all the more devastating that Amy is left unwillingly isolated, compared to David's wish for seclusion.

It also incidentally lets David's character stay more disturbingly nuanced as he's fighting 'to keep his property safe' for the majority of the final siege, rather than in retribution for a particular act. And its interestingly ironic that the 'moral indignation' during that siege scene comes mainly from the Hedden gang, arising from the whole Janice situation with the town child molester (as the commentators say, a character who is almost a younger version of Amy. And played by Sally Thomsett just a year after starring as one of the children in one of the most wholesome British films, The Railway Children!).
Last edited by colinr0380 on Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#139 Post by mfunk9786 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:54 pm

It’s already been posted a few days ago.

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#140 Post by Robespierre » Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:54 am

Watched this last week. A fantastic film and this Criterion blu Ray release is probably in my top 10 favourites from the company. Technically excellent and featuring exhaustive features. A must own.

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#141 Post by movielocke » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:11 pm

Straw Dogs is a film that is expertly suffused with dread and impending doom that I was surprised when the well known rape scene happens not quite half way through the film. That the film then gets into a sort of damning portrayal of clueless masculine libertarian ethos (protect my castle! rahrgh!) rather than revenging the rape is absolutely fascinating. It feels like there's a relatively complex critique of society going on here. not of the mob mentality but of the misogynistic cultures and dominance that Amy is violently subjected to by her husband, by her ex, and by the community. I don't think it's a great film, it's somewhat incoherent, I think (because it seems a bit in love with itself), but it's an absolutely fascinating, and forcefully problematic film that raises a lot of social dialogue because of how it forcefully pokes/triggers a lot of red buttons.

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Re: 182 Straw Dogs

#142 Post by phantomforce » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:50 pm

Sam Peckinpah: "There were four aspects that led me to direct this film: Man ignoring the violence within himself; The intellectual fleeing society and avoiding his responsibilities; The man who becomes violent when he realizes his wife has been raped and that he must defend what belongs to him; The sexual relations within the couple, with the wife being clearly unsatisfied in this regard. I am convinced that in every society, murderers look for their victims. They need a prey. But there are also people who are, consciously or unconsciously, looking for their tormenters and who want to be raped or destroyed. These victims take pleasure in being assaulted and let themselves be sucked up by their tormenters. "

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