Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
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dwk
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#226 Post by dwk » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:49 pm


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Drucker
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#227 Post by Drucker » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:57 pm

It wouldn't be a Criterion boxset unless you needed to own both it and alternative versions of most of its contents!

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domino harvey
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#228 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:58 pm

Even if there are more blunders, this is still easily an incredible box set and release of the year. It's just not as perfect as it once looked

mteller
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#229 Post by mteller » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:37 pm

Drucker wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:57 pm
It wouldn't be a Criterion boxset unless you needed to own both it and alternative versions of most of its contents!
Why would you want to own the older version of Summer Interlude? The new transfer looks better to me from the screenshots.

So far I'm fine with all the changes, wouldn't call any of them a "blunder".

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domino harvey
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#230 Post by domino harvey » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:43 pm

I imagine Drucker was responding to the last page's comments and didn't realize there was another one on a new page. I doubt anyone has a problem with Summer Interlude's new transfer

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Lachino
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#231 Post by Lachino » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:49 pm

There's someone upthread who thinks Summer Interlude needed more contrast, so there's one who's probably going to be unhappy. And on the strength of those stills - f.ex. Birger Malmsteen's sweatshirt in a couple of them - maybe I will be too. It's certainly more detailed but...Is there a gamma problem?

phoenix474
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#232 Post by phoenix474 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:21 pm

Hmm, both of the “controversial” new transfers have the look of the old Svensk Filmindustri DVD’s. Is it possible that Criterion themselves altered the look of the individual releases?

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dwk
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#233 Post by dwk » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:26 pm

I know this isn't the best way to judge color timing, but the new transfers of Autumn Sonata and Cries and Whispers look more like the trailers than the old blu-rays

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EddieLarkin
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#234 Post by EddieLarkin » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:19 pm

All of the new transfers look superior to me. The colour changes will obviously be more pronounced when comparing side by side, but whilst watching I doubt anyone will have a bad word to say.

So in that sense the set is even better than hoped, as we suspected only Seventh Seal would have a new transfer.

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jsteffe
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#235 Post by jsteffe » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:41 pm

I think the Swedish Film Institute deserves credit for using the opportunity to generate new restorations for many of Bergman's films. Even if you could potentially debate the look of this or that film, it's clear that they have given the individual titles thought and care and didn't just slap on some handy LUTs during the grading stage. I was on the fence because of the cost--and, realistically, a question about how many times I would revisit some of the films--but this box set is looking more and more like a must-have!

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hearthesilence
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#236 Post by hearthesilence » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:58 pm

Personally, I kind of prefer the look of the previous Blu-Rays, but I wouldn't tell anyone not to buy the set because of the difference, much less say that they messed up the color. It's probably a new grading based on what they think is right - I highly doubt that it's sloppiness or revisionism.

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Finch
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#237 Post by Finch » Thu Oct 18, 2018 9:12 pm

These new restos do look more natural though I personally think the redder hues of the older resto suit Cries and Whispers more in terms of the feverish atmosphere. Mind it is only my personal preference and I wouldn't pretend to know which colours are more accurately reflecting the intentions of Bergman and his DoP. I'm still going to pass on this set: the only Bergman I still wanted is Hour of The Wolf and the earlier Blu-Rays of the films that I do see myself revisiting regularly are good enough for me. So I'm going to hold out on CC issuing Wolf individually in the long run or for Arrow or someone else to grab Wolf for the UK whenever Tartan's rights lapse if they haven't already.

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tenia
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#238 Post by tenia » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:39 am

I can't even judge the new restorations (and that's not what I wanted to do in the first place). There doesn't seem to be one that obviously appear more correct than the other, and I would have a hard time concluding these are blunders. It is surprising, and it raises questions, but blunder seems too much to me.

I just find it very interesting that seemingly the same lab working with the same elements only a few years apart (it's not a matter of decade old masters being updated) end up with these 2 differences. How did they work the first time around that that was the correct look, but now work it that it wasn't, and that this is it ?
Actually, one could go even further : what won't prevent in 3 or 4 years a 3rd restoration to appear with a THIRD different grading ?

I'm just very curious, workflow wise, at how they came to these different conclusions. What color references are they using now that they weren't using the first time (or vice versa) ?

kekid
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#239 Post by kekid » Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:12 pm

If this box had been issued in absence of previous versions, I think most people would have been quite happy.

There seems to be a general consensus that the differences are not due to carelessness or mistakes. They are intentional.

Posters on this forum have expressed different opinions on whether they prefer old version or new for any given film. These are personal preferences. There does not seem to be a definitive reference for these films. If the preferences are so subjective, why would one question the validity of the new box? If individual people prefer some of the the older restorations, they can keep them. If anyone feels that the vast majority of the new restorations are inferior, they can stick with what they have and fill in what is missing. For my part, I will gladly buy the new box and perhaps keep a few of the older versions.

It would have been easier for Criterion and the restoring team to keep older versions except for the unreleased items. They did not do that because they had a conviction that the newer versions are closer to the intention of the director. We should respect that effort even if we disagree on individual results.

Having said that, I think the discussion here is helpful in drawing attention of prospective buyers to items that the majority of viewers prefer in older versions, so that they can decide what to sell off in an informed way.

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domino harvey
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#240 Post by domino harvey » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:27 pm

A collection of new supplements get their own disc according to Gary's brief writeup

mteller
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#241 Post by mteller » Fri Oct 19, 2018 5:12 pm

Too bad he didn't say more about the Nyrerod interviews. I suspect they're simply bits from the longer, 3-part documentary that ended up being Bergman Island, but I'm hoping for material I haven't seen yet. He calls them "outtakes" which could mean stuff from neither version, or stuff that cut to pare it down to 80 minutes.

Personally, I wasn't too jazzed about ...But Film Is My Mistress, which felt like a retread of a lot of other stuff (although it serves as a nice highlight reel for those who don't want to sit through 3.5 hours of Autumn Sonata rehearsals).

Zack567
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#242 Post by Zack567 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:24 pm

Lachino wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:49 pm
There's someone upthread who thinks Summer Interlude needed more contrast, so there's one who's probably going to be unhappy. And on the strength of those stills - f.ex. Birger Malmsteen's sweatshirt in a couple of them - maybe I will be too. It's certainly more detailed but...Is there a gamma problem?
That person upthread was me. I'm thrilled Criterion has used a new transfer of Summer Interlude. But yes, judging by the screencaps on DVD Beaver the new transfer has moved in the wrong direction and is actually flatter with less contrast than the original Criterion Bluray! That would be disappointing if true.

Of course, these are just screenshots from a few scenes and the actual video in motion can look a bit different so I'll withhold judgement until I can actually view the entire blu-ray. And at least it's fairly easy to fix contrast issues such as these by tweaking the the player and/or monitor.

Zack567
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#243 Post by Zack567 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:39 pm

domino harvey wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:57 am
Through some bizarre good fortune, none of Bergman's color Criterions I put up for sale have sold on eBay yet, so I'll be able to retain versions that look like I'm not Godard watching behind tinted glasses. I am fearful of what the Passion of Anna will look like though
A Passion will indeed be an interesting test. In interviews Bergman talks about how he worked closely with Sven Nykvist and the lab to remove as much blue from the image as possible, and 35mm prints indeed have a look that's both warm, subdued, and a bit desaturated. Whoever supervised the transfer for the MGM DVD release of A Passion evidently never read those interviews, because that DVD was graded with blues at normal levels. The result is blue skies that pop, and interior daytime lighting that occasionally looks artificial because the blueish (5600° K) artificial light that was added to accent the scenes ended up being printed too bright. Let's hope Criterion gets this one right.

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Saturnome
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#244 Post by Saturnome » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:09 am

I've seen the new swedish institute restoration in january, and I remember it had a subtle red/brown look. But I wonder how people are able to remember color timing of years old screenings, I'm barely sure of what I'm saying here. Maybe I'm just remembering Liv Ullman's scarf!

ari101
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#245 Post by ari101 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:13 am

I don't have a source for it, but from memory I read that for the older BluRay Criterion used actual set materials as their color reference. I hated it by the way, and that's why it stuck in my memory.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#246 Post by EddieLarkin » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:03 am

At least 2 Blu-ray.com users have posted that Jon Mulvaney, on being asked, has confirmed the entire set is Region Free.

edit: which Beaver on their latest update (Through a Glass Darkly) have now confirmed.

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domino harvey
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#247 Post by domino harvey » Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:17 pm

Passion of Anna: color revisionistas, on your mark...

The new extras for Shame:
The extras consist of Shame in the News which runs about 5.5 minutes and is a news item that shows director Ingmar Bergman and some of the cast and crew of Shame before filming began. It was originally broad cast on Swedish television on September 9th, 1967. In the next supplement, Ingmar Bergman talks about Shame in a 1/4 hour excerpt of an interview recorded for the Swedish television program Forum, originally broadcast in September of 1968. Criterion has included a new (2018), 21-minute, interview with Liv Ullmann discussing Bergman and Shame. A significant extras if the 1 1/4 hour an Introduction to Ingmar Bergman documentary produced in 1968 for New York's WNET public television station and filmed by Gunnar Fischer, host Lewis Freedman visits director Ingmar Bergman during the production of Shame. They discuss some of Bergman's major works leading up to Shame as well as the just-released Hour of the Wolf.

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tenia
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#248 Post by tenia » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:51 am

domino harvey wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 6:17 pm
Passion of Anna: color revisionistas, on your mark...
In this case, it's a comparison with an old DVD-era master, from MGM on top of that. This is not the same situation than comparing two very recent restorations probably performed from the same elements by the same people.
kekid wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:12 pm
If this box had been issued in absence of previous versions, I think most people would have been quite happy.
There seems to be a general consensus that the differences are not due to carelessness or mistakes. They are intentional.
Posters on this forum have expressed different opinions on whether they prefer old version or new for any given film. These are personal preferences.
This isn't what I'm pointing out (in my case).
These restorations are recent. Cries and Whispers is 2-3 years old, Autumn Sonata is 5 years old. There were performed in Sweden from the OCN. Just like the new ones. Yet, the new ones are graded quite differently.
I don't have any preference. I'm just wondering on what grounds the team assessed at that time that these color gradings were the right ones, and on what grounds did they assessed last year it actually wasn't ?

Pepsi
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#249 Post by Pepsi » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:54 am

Bergman titles not in this set but available with English subs
Eva (Screenplay only) Tartan R0 PAL UK DVD
Face to Face (Theatrical version only) R1 Olive
It Always Rains On Our Love Artificial Eye RB Blu-ray
Music in the Darkness Tartan R0 PAL UK DVD
Prison Tartan R0 PAL UK DVD
Torment (Screenplay only) Criterion Eclipse R1 DVD / Tartan R0 PAL DVD
I apologise if this has been mentioned before but:

The Image Makers (Bildmakarna)(Tartan video) DVD UK (Together with The Phantom Carriage)

Is also out with English subs.

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RobertB
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Re: Ingmar Bergman's Cinema

#250 Post by RobertB » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:30 am

tenia wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:51 am

These restorations are recent. Cries and Whispers is 2-3 years old, Autumn Sonata is 5 years old. There were performed in Sweden from the OCN. Just like the new ones. Yet, the new ones are graded quite differently.
I don't have any preference. I'm just wondering on what grounds the team assessed at that time that these color gradings were the right ones, and on what grounds did they assessed last year it actually wasn't ?
The colour grading was not done in Sweden last time I think. Cries and Wispers 2015 folder says "Scanning. Mats Forsberg/Chimney, Stockholm. Colorist Lee Kline/Criterion, New York"

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